My, it’s just never-ending fun on Twitter. In my previous post, I described how a doctor accused me of insulting the entire profession of hardworking, professional dietitians when I wrote that the dietitians in South Africa look like @$$holes for going after Tim Noakes. He also insisted that it’s not typical for a hardworking, professional dietitian to recommend pancakes as a “heart healthy” breakfast.
After I quoted from three hospital menus listing pancakes and waffles in the “heart healthy” section here on the blog, a reader provided a link to her own photo of a hospital menu. So I cropped it to make the relevant section readable on Twitter and included it in a tweet that read:
Check out this hospital menu for the “Cardiac Diet” … but gosh no, serving pancakes and syrup to a diabetic in a hospital couldn’t possibly be typical of what a dietitian would do ….
Here’s the cropped version of the photo I included:
And that’s when the fun began.
Someone else on Twitter warned me that doctor is a troll, and of course I’d already recognized the troll traits. Online trolls will argue endlessly, but will never, ever, ever, ever admit being wrong, no matter what evidence you provide. Instead, they’ll try to change the argument — preferably to something that has little or nothing to do with the original argument. Then they’ll try keep the focus there to avoid returning to the original argument because they know (but will never admit) they lost that one. They’ll also pepper you with challenging questions, but won’t answer challenging questions in return. It’s all about avoiding — at all costs — admitting they were wrong in whatever statement prompted the original argument.
So with that in mind, when I tweeted the photo above, the doctor immediately demanded to know which hospital’s menu it was. The demand came at 4:00 a.m. Tennessee time, so of course I didn’t answer for hours, by which time he was already suggesting the photo isn’t credible. That prompted some other dumbass to chime in and tell me I should be ashamed of myself for posting a fake photo on Twitter just to cause a stir.
Fake photo? Fascinating theory. You know how people are always firing up their graphics programs to produce fake hospital menus just to cause a stir on Twitter. Happens all the time.
When I finally woke up and had my coffee and logged onto Twitter, I replied that I didn’t know which hospital, but I had no reason to doubt that the reader’s photo was real. I also pointed out that it’s the same advice I’d seen on other hospital menus, so the name of this particular hospital didn’t particularly concern me.
That prompted this response from the doctor:
Tom has no idea if it’s real. Just shared it off the bat because it conforms to his prejudices. So predictable.
I thought the word “predictable” was interesting. Apparently the doctor has been following me on Twitter for a long time and, after witnessing the large number of unverified photos of menus I tweet, was able to predict I’d do it again. Man, I hate being predictable like that.
But “has no idea if it’s real” is just plain silly. I had a very good idea that it’s real. I had already downloaded three hospital menus and quoted from the “heart healthy” offerings here on the blog. So when a reader linked to a photo she snapped of a hospital menu recommending exactly the same “heart healthy” choices I’d seen on other hospital menus, it would have been a bit odd to think, Hmmm, it looks just like the other menus I’ve seen, but this one may be a fake.
“Because it conforms to his prejudices” is an even sillier comment. Apparently the doctor believes that when you download several hospital menus listing pancakes as “heart healthy” and then see a photo of yet another hospital menu offering “heart healthy” pancakes, only some kind of crazy prejudice would prompt to you assume it’s a real photo of a real menu. I happen to believe recognizing patterns is a sign of intelligence, not prejudice. And the obvious pattern is that hospital dietitians put pancakes in the “heart healthy” category.
But no, no, no, the real issue that now required endless arguing (according to the doctor) is that I didn’t verify that the photo is real by asking the reader to name the specific hospital. Hmmm, interesting logic. If a reader links to a photo of a hospital menu and says she took the photo herself, there are only two possibilities: 1) she’s telling the truth, or 2) she’s lying.
If she’s telling the truth (by far the most likely possibility, since she’d otherwise risk embarrassing herself publicly), then there’s no issue. If she’s lying, asking her to name the hospital isn’t going to verify anything. She’d just lie again. Perhaps the doctor believes liars have a one-lie-per-day limit.
Anyway, it turns out the reader named the hospital in a separate linked page, which I failed to notice the first time. So I replied to the doctor with the name of the hospital. Now it’s verified and all is well, right?
Of course not. Remember, trolls never, ever, ever, ever admit being wrong and constantly try to change the argument when proven wrong. So the doctor wanted to keep arguing that I hadn’t properly verified the photo before tweeting it. I replied that short of flying to Colorado to look at the hospital’s menu myself, I wasn’t sure what he was demanding as proper “verification” and asked him to define it. I never got an answer, but did receive more mini-lectures on how I should have verified the photo and I was tweeting nonsense.
Nonsense? More interesting logic. We have a photo of a hospital menu and (with a slight delay) the name of the hospital. I never did grasp what exactly was nonsense about it.
Then doctor asked if the photo was of the entire menu. Well, of course it wasn’t. I cropped it to show that pancakes and waffles were on the Cardiac Diet portion. That was, after all, the original argument: is it typical or atypical for hardworking, professional dietitians to recommend pancakes as a “heart healthy” breakfast.
That drew a reply from the doctor that by only showing a portion of the entire menu, I was misrepresenting the truth.
Now that was some interesting logic indeed. Let’s see … the doctor insisted that offering pancakes as a “heart healthy” breakfast isn’t typical of those hardworking, professional dietitians. I provide photos demonstrating that pancakes are on the “heart healthy” or Cardiac Diet section of hospital menus approved by dietitians. That proves it’s typical. No doubt about it. Game, set, match.
Ahhh, but since I didn’t include the entire menu, I’m misrepresenting … uh … something, so my proof isn’t valid. Perhaps the doctor believes that somewhere farther down on the menu, there are big block letters that read: HEY, WHEN WE LISTED PANCAKES AS HEART-HEALTHY, WE WERE ONLY KIDDING! DON’T ORDER THEM. And bad boy that I am, I cropped out the warning.
Like I said earlier, trolls like to pose challenging questions, but ignore any challenging questions you raise in return and simply try to change the argument. So I asked the doctor if he still believes pancakes = heart-healthy breakfast is not typical advice from dietitians. He didn’t answer.
But yes, of course it’s typical. I normally don’t waste time in endless online debates with obvious trolls who will never, ever, ever, ever admit being wrong, but since the awful advice on hospital menus makes for interesting blog fodder, I downloaded several more. (I don’t know if the doctor would consider them verified. Probably not.)
Now, I admit I’m not showing each menu in its entirety here … that would be pointless and a bit stupid, since the menus are several pages long. All we need to know is if foods like pancakes, waffles and cereals are labeled as “heart healthy.” So here are some screen caps I’ve put together, taken directly from PDFs of the menus.
This one is from UAB hospital in Alabama. Mmm, heart-healthy pancakes. Notice that eggs are only heart-healthy if you order the low-cholesterol version … meaning some kind of industrial-food egg substitute like Egg Beaters.
This one is from Providence Hospital in Spokane, WA. Turns out both pancakes and Frosted Flakes are heart-healthy. Who knew protecting your heart could be so darned delicious?
Next up, we have a menu from Magee Women’s hospital in Pittsburgh. Well, dangit, no heart-healthy pancakes. But brown sugar and Frosted Flakes will protect your heart, so that’s good.
From Rush University Hospital in Chicago … pancakes, Frosted Flakes, breads, muffins and apple strudel are all heart-healthy. Wow!
The hardworking, professional dietitians at Yuma Regional Medical Center in Arizona have also decided that Honey Nut Cheerios are heart-healthy. Gee, I can’t see anything wrong with that advice.
Look at the little hearts next to all the heart-healthy choices from Strong Memorial Hospital in New York. Frosted Flakes and pancakes!
Rats, no pancakes in the heart-healthy offerings from the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. But you can protect your heart with all kinds of breads, bagels and muffins … not to mention Frosted Mini-Wheats and Honey Nut Cheerios.
But don’t worry, pancakes are heart-healthy again at the Lexington Medical Center in South Carolina.
We know these choices from the University of Wisconsin Hospital are heart-healthy, because the menu assures us they were selected by hardworking, professional, registered dietitians.
This may be my favorite … from Decatur Memorial Hospital in Illinois (I was born in that town), it turns out that pancakes, cinnamon rolls, blueberry muffins, Frosted Mini-Wheats and even Captain Crunch cereal will save you from heart disease.
But of course, it’s not typical for hardworking, professional dietitians to recommend foods like these as heart-healthy meals. Just ask the doctor.
For you dietitians who know better, no offense. But this is why the profession as a whole is in trouble. Much as they want to blame Tim Noakes, or “disruptors” who offer alternative advice that actually works, or the internet, or whatever, these menus show why the profession has lost credibility.
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I pray to all gods that I never ever have to be in hospital because I couldn’t eat anything so incredibly healthy. The mother was in hospital a couple of years ago and had this interesting dessert, which was small piece of cake. The ingredients had to be printed in 3 point large font because there were so many of them. Totally yuck!
When I saw the apple strudel on the menu, my first thought was that this is what killed Sgt. Schultz.
I know nothinnnnng!
I’m a cardiac ICU nurse and I can definitely confirm that those menus are typical of what we feed our patients, too. I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes twice (what do you know, when you’re forced to drink more sugar in 5 minutes than you typically consume over the course of a few days, of course you’re going to fail the test and feel miserable all week) and when I went in to deliver my babies there was almost nothing I could eat off the hospital menu. Even on a “regular” diet I couldn’t order more than 3 eggs or one low-fat hamburger patty at a time, and the midwives wouldnt change it to a ketogenic diet because that diet does have actual medical uses for epilepsy and it triggers a lot of extra monitoring and lab tests to make sure it’s “safe.” So I ended up bringing in all my own food and ordering delivery unwiches from the local sub shop. Then I got in trouble with the nutrition department for not eating enough (since I wasn’t eating anything from them besides 2 hard boiled eggs each meal). So I can verify from both ends that nutrition in the hospital is a joke!
That’s why it struck as strange when Dr. Troll insisted it’s not typical for foods like pancakes to be on the ‘heart healthy’ menu. I’ve talked to or heard from enough people in the medical industry to know that it’s very typical.
I was hospitalized once in 1986. Thankfully there was a Roy Rogers across the street. It’s a McDonald’s now and a thriving one at that.
I’m a lazy person looking for a career and this is perfect!
Don’t need to learn any science and just memorize the Kellogg’s catalog…
I was assured by someone on Twitter that registered dietitians are actual scientists, so perhaps we’re just not capable of grasping their high-level scientific thinking.
I got sick of all the “evidence-based” claims and worked through some of the stuff dietitians actually learn at uni.
They actually do some sort of science but it doesn’t translate well to real life.
“I happen to believe recognizing patterns is a sign of intelligence, not prejudice”.
Sometimes, while thinking over a problem, one finds oneself saying (or writing) something like that. And perhaps it’s only then that you gaze thoughtfully at the words, and think, “Maybe that’s an important Higher Truth”.
I have gone through life (I’m currently 69) being criticized for “stereotyping”. As far as I could, I accepted that as a useful corrective, and tried hard to avoid unjustified stereotyping.
But I really feel that “recognizing patterns is a sign of intelligence”. Indeed, it’s a good starting point from which to define intelligence.
And yet there seem to be all these people who abominate it. Postmodernism, modern art, architecture and music, and a great deal of what passes for modern culture, embodies a fundamental rejection of pattern and intelligence.
Postmodernists are the intellectual descendants of philosophers who specifically rejected logic as a tool for discerning truth, so no surprise there.
I think the best and most popular form of modern art is web comics. You don’t need to be syndicated and you can run your work up the flagpole and see if anyone picks up the scent with little expense .
The competition is rough, but can get your work out there. And don’t say comic strips are not art, the Metropolitan Museum of Art (NYC) had a display of baseball cards recently.
I pray to all gods that I never ever have to be in hospital because I couldn’t eat anything so incredibly healthy. The mother was in hospital a couple of years ago and had this interesting dessert, which was small piece of cake. The ingredients had to be printed in 3 point large font because there were so many of them. Totally yuck!
I think I’d choose a fast instead.
When I saw the apple strudel on the menu, my first thought was that this is what killed Sgt. Schultz.
I know nothinnnnng!
I’m a cardiac ICU nurse and I can definitely confirm that those menus are typical of what we feed our patients, too. I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes twice (what do you know, when you’re forced to drink more sugar in 5 minutes than you typically consume over the course of a few days, of course you’re going to fail the test and feel miserable all week) and when I went in to deliver my babies there was almost nothing I could eat off the hospital menu. Even on a “regular” diet I couldn’t order more than 3 eggs or one low-fat hamburger patty at a time, and the midwives wouldnt change it to a ketogenic diet because that diet does have actual medical uses for epilepsy and it triggers a lot of extra monitoring and lab tests to make sure it’s “safe.” So I ended up bringing in all my own food and ordering delivery unwiches from the local sub shop. Then I got in trouble with the nutrition department for not eating enough (since I wasn’t eating anything from them besides 2 hard boiled eggs each meal). So I can verify from both ends that nutrition in the hospital is a joke!
That’s why it struck as strange when Dr. Troll insisted it’s not typical for foods like pancakes to be on the ‘heart healthy’ menu. I’ve talked to or heard from enough people in the medical industry to know that it’s very typical.
Maybe he’s sick of being a doctor and is intent on showing how clueless he is, thus reducing his patient load.
On a serious note though, I sometimes have to go into hospital for asthma. I do eat sugary things at home, but avoid grains and sugar in hospital, which is the first set of options served up for breakfast plus coffee or tea.
By the second or third day my asthma has abated somewhat thanks to medication and oxygen and I can go down to the café if I wish or eat from the menu I have painfully convinced someone to change re my dietary needs eg meat and vegetables sans gravy.
I’m pretty strict with myself in hospital but at home ice cream often calls my name.
What is weird is that magnesium – a necessary accompaniment to asthma meds – needs a doctor’s OK before dispensing it in hospital!
Hospitals always cry poor. I think if they improved the menu they’d find they could do their job better even though they’d still want more money. It would be easier for them anyway!
Don’t forget that these “food” choices are also a result of measly budgets. This is not food, it’s filler.
Menu choices from Western private Hospital in Victoria, Australia:
http://westernprivatehospital.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/WPHMenu-Week-1.pdf
Here are some interesting instructions for BYO food at this hospital (Melbourne):
https://svphm.org.au/home/patients-and-visitors/inpatient-stay/meals-and-food-in-hospital
See the heading Bringing in Food for Patients.
See page 8 here for menu choices for South Australia:
http://www.sahealth.sa.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/45b4ae0045d04e7d9bdcfbac725693cd/14130+1+Menu+Nutr+Stand+Report-v5.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-45b4ae0045d04e7d9bdcfbac725693cd-lBl4Kui
Could be worse!
I tried to find the menu for the hospital I generally attend but they don’t seem to have it.
However, it’s usually cereal, toast, HEART-HEALTHY margarine (!) – it says so on the packet – maybe jam, Vegemite (local spread), fruit and tea or coffee with some sort of milk.
Lunch and dinner, if you can get to the menu, can be vegetables, salad and meat – fish, chicken, beef.
Not brilliantly done but very fair indeed and I don’t say no.
Other options are often pasta dishes, potatoes, toast, ice cream (half-melted), syrupy tinned fruit, sometimes fresh fruit.
It is navigable but if you’re not functional when you go in you need to wait a day or so because the food choices are marked for you until you can order it yourself and the kitchen changes the info.
Once while I was changing my menu choices I ended up getting 2 dinners! 😉 What the hell, I chose the good stuff from the second one- steak – and enjoyed it.
The café area in the hospital has loads of good choices available so the main thing you need in hospital is mobility – they don’t bring it up in the elevator – and money.
What, no pancakes?
Pancakes is an American thing. Some Aussies eat them but it’s nothing like it is in America.
Well, dangit, whoever named it the “International House of Pancakes” must’ve been exaggerating.
I was hospitalized once in 1986. Thankfully there was a Roy Rogers across the street. It’s a McDonald’s now and a thriving one at that.
Back in the old days it was “Sugar Frosted Flakes.” Now the company knows the public doesn’t want the extra “sugar.” But the dietitians are oblivious to that.
I’m pretty sure if you remove the word “Sugar” from the name, it’s now heart-healthy.
I wonder how angel food cake, chocolate pudding and vanilla pudding made it onto the “traditional breakfast” … you sure have some strange traditions. Here (in Europe) that would have been eggs & ham/bacon (or cappuchino in Italy) …
I believe there is a small typo on those menues. It should really say “Heart doctor’s wallets healthy breakfast”… or something like that.
Sorry, that’s a bit of confusion caused by my cut-and-paste of the listings. I mostly clipped offerings from breakfast, but also screen-capped other “heart healthy” choices I found interesting. Cake wasn’t on the breakfast menu.
Now – then it’s all right. Or not.
Calling these menues “heart healthy” seem to me like listening to a dermatologist;
“The sun is bad for you – stay out, or at least use spf30”
– But vitamin D is a required vitamin, I like fresh air and responsible tanning have a great effect on mood!
“Mood is not my responsibillity. The sun is bad!”
The focus is so narrowed that they completely loose sight of the main objective … staying alive & reasonably fit & healthy – with your whole body.
I realize that trolls like to troll, but this is like shooting fish in a barrel. It’s just so easy to prove. By contrast, when they cite to some crappy epidemiological study, at least it’s somewhat plausible.
As soon as he insisted ‘pancakes = heart healthy’ isn’t typical advice, I knew it was just a matter of finding hospital menus I could download. After I posted several examples from menus on Twitter, he went silent.
I’m a lazy person looking for a career and this is perfect!
Don’t need to learn any science and just memorize the Kellogg’s catalog…
I was assured by someone on Twitter that registered dietitians are actual scientists, so perhaps we’re just not capable of grasping their high-level scientific thinking.
I am thinking there are a lot of people who do not know what scientists actually do, and how they are supposed to think.
I used to think that all doctors where scientists and problem solvers. My opinion of the average doctor has fallen over the last 10 years, sadly.
Reading/listening to the likes of Dr. Peter Attia, Dr. Cate Shanahan and the likes I honestly believe most doctors went to medical school with a positive mind set, many of them where budding engineers and scientists, but that was beaten out of them in the later years of medical school and residency.
I also would like to believe that vast majority of doctors have the ability to find their roots, but it requires taking a large step back with an open mind.
As far as dietitians and some other professions, that one is much harder to generalize with a positive spin.
Time will tell.
Anyway, to answer the question, I think people need to understand the scientific method. This might not be the best link, but it is a start
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/science-fair/steps-of-the-scientific-method
cheers,
thomas
I also used to believe doctors were scientists along the lines of physicists or chemists. I was disabused of that notion while doing research for Fat Head.
There are many, many brilliant doctors out there. Some do think like scientists. But the ones I’ve met personally told me medical school is largely about memorizing. Critical, skeptical, scientific thinking isn’t really part of the program.
The biggest critical thinking doctors I’ve seen were often those who also provided alternate medicines, esp. those from China/India or were at least highly critical of freely using medicines from big pharma, though they would recommend basic medicine or only prescribe more moderate medicines.
The low-carb doctors seem to engage in more critical thinking as well, probably because critical thinking is what led them to go against the standard advice.
Memorization and training to carry out procedures. There is really little time to acquire a scientific education although some doctors do get Piled Higher and Deepers. Truth to tell they mostly don’t get adequate training is statistics.
I got sick of all the “evidence-based” claims and worked through some of the stuff dietitians actually learn at uni.
They actually do some sort of science but it doesn’t translate well to real life.
“I happen to believe recognizing patterns is a sign of intelligence, not prejudice”.
Sometimes, while thinking over a problem, one finds oneself saying (or writing) something like that. And perhaps it’s only then that you gaze thoughtfully at the words, and think, “Maybe that’s an important Higher Truth”.
I have gone through life (I’m currently 69) being criticized for “stereotyping”. As far as I could, I accepted that as a useful corrective, and tried hard to avoid unjustified stereotyping.
But I really feel that “recognizing patterns is a sign of intelligence”. Indeed, it’s a good starting point from which to define intelligence.
And yet there seem to be all these people who abominate it. Postmodernism, modern art, architecture and music, and a great deal of what passes for modern culture, embodies a fundamental rejection of pattern and intelligence.
Postmodernists are the intellectual descendants of philosophers who specifically rejected logic as a tool for discerning truth, so no surprise there.
I think the best and most popular form of modern art is web comics. You don’t need to be syndicated and you can run your work up the flagpole and see if anyone picks up the scent with little expense .
The competition is rough, but can get your work out there. And don’t say comic strips are not art, the Metropolitan Museum of Art (NYC) had a display of baseball cards recently.
I know of which doctor you speak. He seems to spend an inordinate amount of time trolling low carb folks from all over the world. He spends so much time trolling low-carbers that I wonder he has time to doctor anyone. In fact, I have to wonder if in fact he is a doctor? Has he ever offered any proof that he’s a doctor? Why should I believe him just because he says he’s a doctor? And if someone said they were a patient of his, why would I believe them? They would have to tell me exactly where his office is and take a picture of the degree hanging in his office. If they provided that, I would need to see pictures of the whole office, the building it was in and the surrounding neighbourhoods, including all the street signs. Because somehow that would prove that he was a doctor. Of course, if they provided that, I would have to ignore it and attack from a different angle. He has opened my eyes to whole new methods of disbelief!
Heh-heh … yeah, I was warned he’s a troll. Like I said, I wouldn’t normally waste my time, but it was fun to download and screen-cap all those hospital menus and prove him wrong publicly, since he wanted to keep arguing. He’s since gone silent, even though someone else on Twitter has been asking him when he’s just going to admit I was right.
Hahahaha.
Yes I dug up your Twitter posts with absolutely no surprise.
Sadly I actually believe he IS a doctor, and a pediatrician to boot. Someone posted that they would not let him near any children, or even animals.
Posting hospital menus, diabetic menus. airline food, etc. has a long and honourable tradition
https://twitter.com/DietDoctor1/status/800709357402996736
https://twitter.com/DietDoctor1/status/796709222629122049
https://twitter.com/tednaiman/status/813646769959514112
https://twitter.com/tednaiman/status/809099093532233728
https://twitter.com/Diabetescouk/status/805735934075539457
https://twitter.com/DaveKeto/status/824719948131864576
https://twitter.com/DrScottMurray/status/920263214998409216
I have more but I am starting to wear Twitter out
I suppose the doctor who trolled me will consider those unverified.
I just don’t understand how people can be so blatantly biased that they will not even think, for a moment, that they could be wrong. To me, evidence is the largest factor in making any decision that I do make. The decision may be right or wrong, but I will always admit that I made the wrong decision and go back and figure out where my though process failed, what the evidence showed and really try not to have the same flaw in my logic again. Thanks for putting up with this s**t Tom. I am fairly certain that if this were a face to face confrontation this “doctor” would not be such a jackass. There seem to be Internet warriors everywhere, but I tend not to find them in real life.
Yeah, I’ve often wondered how many internet cowboys would be so brave in person.
He’s probably married to a dietitian.
I wondered about that myself.
One who doesn’t eat meat
Biscuit and sausage gravy available until 10:30 AM? That must be when they run out.
The helpful number after the carbs cracks me up (they denote 15 apiece, right?).
I’m a member of our local Power Squadron (national boating organization) and helped man our booth this weekend at the annual boat show. My fellow volunteer was describing a system a friend of his had come up with regarding boating costs: “Everything you have to fix on a boat costs at least $1,000. Bodywork dinged up? $1,000. Winter storage? $1,000. Engine not running right? $1,000. So, instead of explaining to his wife how much something cost in dollars, he’d refer just to the cost in ‘Boating Units’ — which are $1,000 each. So a new trailer, which would seem preposterously expensive for something you’re going to use 4 times a year, seems much more reasonable when it’s only 4 B.U.’s”
Genius.
I’ll still keep referring to carbs by the gram, thank you, until they start putting a little Tablespoon symbol with the number on the menu, then explaining how that’s the number of tablespoons of sugar in each item. Then they could have a picture of a measuring cup to show the equivalent amount of sugar those 15 servings your hardworking, professional, registered dietitians thinks you should eat every day.
Cheers
Back in the old days it was “Sugar Frosted Flakes.” Now the company knows the public doesn’t want the extra “sugar.” But the dietitians are oblivious to that.
I’m pretty sure if you remove the word “Sugar” from the name, it’s now heart-healthy.
That’s my photo, taken in 2013 at Swedish Hospital in Englewood, Colorado. Swedish is generally a good hospital, but sadly, the menu is real. My mother, a T2 diabetic, was a patient there at the time and that was the food on offer to her. As I noted in my blog, they gave her high-carb food, but didn’t give her insulin, which she normally took.
She’s now in a nursing home and the menu is equally awful.
I think critics and people who wonder if the menu is a joke are forgetting that this was considered healthy food only five or certainly ten years ago. When I started doing LC in 2010, people I told about it looked at me like I had two heads.
Unfortunately, it’s still considered healthy food by quite a few hospital dietitians. My dustup with the doctor began when I said a hospital dietitian served my diabetic father-in-law pancakes as a “heart healthy” option (because diabetics need to protect their hearts), and the doctor insisted that’s not typical. I’ve since downloaded quite a few hospital menus currently in use to confirm that yes, it’s very typical. I’d wager if you back to Swedish Memorial, those “healthy” options are still on the Cardiac Diet section.
It was fun to read people’s amazement and dismay on Twitter that this was a cardiac menu–it’s a good sign that ideas about a healthy diet are going in the right direction. And I respect that some people wondered whether the menu was real. First, it’s a typical menu, as you showed. Second, I have no reason to spend an hour or so making up a fake menu, and can’t imagine why anyone else would. If I had, I’d have at least spelled the words right. The lunch menu on the back listed “Buffalo Chile” and “Demi Glaze.” Maybe it’s a sign of the intelligence of the people who wrote the menu, versus that of Twitter readers who somehow ascertained from the snippet you showed that it was from North America.
It was a bit preposterous to suggest someone had made up a fake hospital menu when there are so many like it out there. What would be the point? There’s no need to create a fiction that’s exactly the same as reality.
When the doctor wanted to argue about whether the menu was real and whether I’d properly verified it, I took it for what it was: he knew he was losing the original argument and wanted to switch it to something else.
When he couldn’t define what proper “verification” would mean, he tried switching the argument again, leaving a couple of comments saying I owe the dietitians of South Africa an apology. (Riiiight, because I feel so guilty for insulting the people who persecuted Tim Noakes.) When I posted more menus I’d downloaded myself, he went strangely silent.
I wonder how angel food cake, chocolate pudding and vanilla pudding made it onto the “traditional breakfast” … you sure have some strange traditions. Here (in Europe) that would have been eggs & ham/bacon (or cappuchino in Italy) …
I believe there is a small typo on those menues. It should really say “Heart doctor’s wallets healthy breakfast”… or something like that.
Sorry, that’s a bit of confusion caused by my cut-and-paste of the listings. I mostly clipped offerings from breakfast, but also screen-capped other “heart healthy” choices I found interesting. Cake wasn’t on the breakfast menu.
Now – then it’s all right. Or not.
Calling these menues “heart healthy” seem to me like listening to a dermatologist;
“The sun is bad for you – stay out, or at least use spf30”
– But vitamin D is a required vitamin, I like fresh air and responsible tanning have a great effect on mood!
“Mood is not my responsibillity. The sun is bad!”
The focus is so narrowed that they completely loose sight of the main objective … staying alive & reasonably fit & healthy – with your whole body.
I realize that trolls like to troll, but this is like shooting fish in a barrel. It’s just so easy to prove. By contrast, when they cite to some crappy epidemiological study, at least it’s somewhat plausible.
As soon as he insisted ‘pancakes = heart healthy’ isn’t typical advice, I knew it was just a matter of finding hospital menus I could download. After I posted several examples from menus on Twitter, he went silent.
I know of which doctor you speak. He seems to spend an inordinate amount of time trolling low carb folks from all over the world. He spends so much time trolling low-carbers that I wonder he has time to doctor anyone. In fact, I have to wonder if in fact he is a doctor? Has he ever offered any proof that he’s a doctor? Why should I believe him just because he says he’s a doctor? And if someone said they were a patient of his, why would I believe them? They would have to tell me exactly where his office is and take a picture of the degree hanging in his office. If they provided that, I would need to see pictures of the whole office, the building it was in and the surrounding neighbourhoods, including all the street signs. Because somehow that would prove that he was a doctor. Of course, if they provided that, I would have to ignore it and attack from a different angle. He has opened my eyes to whole new methods of disbelief!
Heh-heh … yeah, I was warned he’s a troll. Like I said, I wouldn’t normally waste my time, but it was fun to download and screen-cap all those hospital menus and prove him wrong publicly, since he wanted to keep arguing. He’s since gone silent, even though someone else on Twitter has been asking him when he’s just going to admit I was right.
Hahahaha.
Yes I dug up your Twitter posts with absolutely no surprise.
Sadly I actually believe he IS a doctor, and a pediatrician to boot. Someone posted that they would not let him near any children, or even animals.
Posting hospital menus, diabetic menus. airline food, etc. has a long and honourable tradition
https://twitter.com/DietDoctor1/status/800709357402996736
https://twitter.com/DietDoctor1/status/796709222629122049
https://twitter.com/tednaiman/status/813646769959514112
https://twitter.com/tednaiman/status/809099093532233728
https://twitter.com/Diabetescouk/status/805735934075539457
https://twitter.com/DaveKeto/status/824719948131864576
https://twitter.com/DrScottMurray/status/920263214998409216
I have more but I am starting to wear Twitter out
I suppose the doctor who trolled me will consider those unverified.
Another one who went to the same training school claimed in a diabetes newsgroup that the ADA never told patients to “Eat More Starch!” since the offending page had finally been taken down.
A friend helpfully posted a copy she had downloaded and kept. He accused her of forging it.
Meanwhile
https://web.archive.org/web/20040203222331/http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp
You’ve got to love this bit:
“Currently some controversy about carbohydrates is raging due to a few new diet books. These books encourage a low carbohydrate, high protein and moderate fat intake. These diets are not in synch with the American Diabetes Association nutrition recommendations, which are based on years of research and clinical experience.”
I guess those years of research and the recommendations based on all that clinical experience are why diabetes rates have plummeted.
Oh but diabetes rates would have plummeted, only no-one is following our recommendations.
Whatever you do, don’t look in the ADA Forums to see diabetes rates actually plummeting because people are NOT following their recommendations. They are all liars. Goto 1.
I just don’t understand how people can be so blatantly biased that they will not even think, for a moment, that they could be wrong. To me, evidence is the largest factor in making any decision that I do make. The decision may be right or wrong, but I will always admit that I made the wrong decision and go back and figure out where my though process failed, what the evidence showed and really try not to have the same flaw in my logic again. Thanks for putting up with this s**t Tom. I am fairly certain that if this were a face to face confrontation this “doctor” would not be such a jackass. There seem to be Internet warriors everywhere, but I tend not to find them in real life.
Yeah, I’ve often wondered how many internet cowboys would be so brave in person.
He’s probably married to a dietitian.
I wondered about that myself.
One who doesn’t eat meat
Biscuit and sausage gravy available until 10:30 AM? That must be when they run out.
Go get ’em Tom!!!
The helpful number after the carbs cracks me up (they denote 15 apiece, right?).
I’m a member of our local Power Squadron (national boating organization) and helped man our booth this weekend at the annual boat show. My fellow volunteer was describing a system a friend of his had come up with regarding boating costs: “Everything you have to fix on a boat costs at least $1,000. Bodywork dinged up? $1,000. Winter storage? $1,000. Engine not running right? $1,000. So, instead of explaining to his wife how much something cost in dollars, he’d refer just to the cost in ‘Boating Units’ — which are $1,000 each. So a new trailer, which would seem preposterously expensive for something you’re going to use 4 times a year, seems much more reasonable when it’s only 4 B.U.’s”
Genius.
I’ll still keep referring to carbs by the gram, thank you, until they start putting a little Tablespoon symbol with the number on the menu, then explaining how that’s the number of tablespoons of sugar in each item. Then they could have a picture of a measuring cup to show the equivalent amount of sugar those 15 servings your hardworking, professional, registered dietitians thinks you should eat every day.
Cheers
I had the same thought about whether or not he is really a doctor but I guess in the long run it doesn’t matter because the ones I’ve encountered are far from nutritional experts. Also I wonder how many people would pick the Raisin Bran as a “healthier” option. We were recently debating whkch cereal to purchase for a houseguest and had somewhat limited options at Costco but decided to find one with the lowest sugar content. Believe it or not, we walked out with Frosted Flakes based on that criteria alone. Yikes!
That’s my photo, taken in 2013 at Swedish Hospital in Englewood, Colorado. Swedish is generally a good hospital, but sadly, the menu is real. My mother, a T2 diabetic, was a patient there at the time and that was the food on offer to her. As I noted in my blog, they gave her high-carb food, but didn’t give her insulin, which she normally took.
She’s now in a nursing home and the menu is equally awful.
I think critics and people who wonder if the menu is a joke are forgetting that this was considered healthy food only five or certainly ten years ago. When I started doing LC in 2010, people I told about it looked at me like I had two heads.
Unfortunately, it’s still considered healthy food by quite a few hospital dietitians. My dustup with the doctor began when I said a hospital dietitian served my diabetic father-in-law pancakes as a “heart healthy” option (because diabetics need to protect their hearts), and the doctor insisted that’s not typical. I’ve since downloaded quite a few hospital menus currently in use to confirm that yes, it’s very typical. I’d wager if you back to Swedish Memorial, those “healthy” options are still on the Cardiac Diet section.
It was fun to read people’s amazement and dismay on Twitter that this was a cardiac menu–it’s a good sign that ideas about a healthy diet are going in the right direction. And I respect that some people wondered whether the menu was real. First, it’s a typical menu, as you showed. Second, I have no reason to spend an hour or so making up a fake menu, and can’t imagine why anyone else would. If I had, I’d have at least spelled the words right. The lunch menu on the back listed “Buffalo Chile” and “Demi Glaze.” Maybe it’s a sign of the intelligence of the people who wrote the menu, versus that of Twitter readers who somehow ascertained from the snippet you showed that it was from North America.
It was a bit preposterous to suggest someone had made up a fake hospital menu when there are so many like it out there. What would be the point? There’s no need to create a fiction that’s exactly the same as reality.
When the doctor wanted to argue about whether the menu was real and whether I’d properly verified it, I took it for what it was: he knew he was losing the original argument and wanted to switch it to something else.
When he couldn’t define what proper “verification” would mean, he tried switching the argument again, leaving a couple of comments saying I owe the dietitians of South Africa an apology. (Riiiight, because I feel so guilty for insulting the people who persecuted Tim Noakes.) When I posted more menus I’d downloaded myself, he went strangely silent.
Go get ’em Tom!!!
I had the same thought about whether or not he is really a doctor but I guess in the long run it doesn’t matter because the ones I’ve encountered are far from nutritional experts. Also I wonder how many people would pick the Raisin Bran as a “healthier” option. We were recently debating whkch cereal to purchase for a houseguest and had somewhat limited options at Costco but decided to find one with the lowest sugar content. Believe it or not, we walked out with Frosted Flakes based on that criteria alone. Yikes!
I think I’d walk out with extra eggs and no cereal.
I hate their deceptive method of carb counting: 1 carb = 15g carbs. I know people who would be fooled into thinking the food was OK. When I first started lc I got fooled by sneaky serving sizes. I’d look at the carb count & not notice that the serving size was ridiculously small. I’m very careful now when I read labels – and don’t buy too many foods that have labels.
If that twitter “doctor” is a real doctor, I hope I never need to go to him.
I believe he’s in South Africa. From what others tell me, he likes to troll low-carbers and has been quite critical of Tim Noakes. I don’t know if that means he supports the persecution of Noakes, but he certainly got his nose out of joint when I tweeted that the dietitians in South Africa look like @$$holes right now.
You are a far more gracious/tolerant person than I would be under these circumstances, Tom. I would have started using sneer quotes for our “esteemed doctor”. It doesn’t matter what authority he chooses to assert (real or imagined) to try and force others to his view; if he fails to apply honestly skeptical thinking to his own biases, he will be made to look the fool, and justifiably so, in this situation. Keep up the good fight!
When I see trolls arguing endlessly and I know they can be proved wrong, I’m more amused than angry. He did end up looking foolish, and I suspect he knows it even if he’ll never admit it.
I hate their deceptive method of carb counting: 1 carb = 15g carbs. I know people who would be fooled into thinking the food was OK. When I first started lc I got fooled by sneaky serving sizes. I’d look at the carb count & not notice that the serving size was ridiculously small. I’m very careful now when I read labels – and don’t buy too many foods that have labels.
If that twitter “doctor” is a real doctor, I hope I never need to go to him.
I believe he’s in South Africa. From what others tell me, he likes to troll low-carbers and has been quite critical of Tim Noakes. I don’t know if that means he supports the persecution of Noakes, but he certainly got his nose out of joint when I tweeted that the dietitians in South Africa look like @$$holes right now.
You are a far more gracious/tolerant person than I would be under these circumstances, Tom. I would have started using sneer quotes for our “esteemed doctor”. It doesn’t matter what authority he chooses to assert (real or imagined) to try and force others to his view; if he fails to apply honestly skeptical thinking to his own biases, he will be made to look the fool, and justifiably so, in this situation. Keep up the good fight!
When I see trolls arguing endlessly and I know they can be proved wrong, I’m more amused than angry. He did end up looking foolish, and I suspect he knows it even if he’ll never admit it.
When will pizza end up on the hospital breakfast menu?
https://whdh.com/news/pizza-for-breakfast-is-healthier-than-eating-cereal-nutritionist-says/
Interesting, but of course most foods are healthier than sugary cereals.
If hospitals start serving Fat Head Pizza, it would be the healthiest thing on the menu!
Cheers
I’d like to see that … if we got a cut.
When will pizza end up on the hospital breakfast menu?
https://whdh.com/news/pizza-for-breakfast-is-healthier-than-eating-cereal-nutritionist-says/
Interesting, but of course most foods are healthier than sugary cereals.
If hospitals start serving Fat Head Pizza, it would be the healthiest thing on the menu!
Cheers
I’d like to see that … if we got a cut.
Found this one, not my local hospital..it’s not great but at least you can have butter ..shame eggs not an option http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/Media/SUHTInternet/PatientsAndVisitors/Standard-menu.pdf
Yeesh, it’s still lot of processed carbs for breakfast if you follow the guidelines.
Found this one, not my local hospital..it’s not great but at least you can have butter ..shame eggs not an option http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/Media/SUHTInternet/PatientsAndVisitors/Standard-menu.pdf
Yeesh, it’s still lot of processed carbs for breakfast if you follow the guidelines.