A Vegetarian Diet Will Make You Sick And Crazy, Part Two

In our last episode, we heard from a BBC reporter (and member of The Anointed) who believes governments should use information campaigns and “price reform” to discourage people from eating meat … all because of a cockamamie theory that forcing her preferences on the rest of us will somehow reduce global warmi—er, climate change.

Soon after that post, a reader sent me a link to a site promoting a discount on life insurance for vegetarians. The name of the page suggests it’s a lead generator, so I don’t know if any insurers are actually offering such a discount. Could just be a way to get your name on a marketing list.

If insurers really and truly do offer discounts for vegetarians, however, it raises some interesting possibilities … such as, how do they know people won’t just lie on the form? The only qualifying question on the page is How long have you been a vegetarian? What’s to stop people from entering 25 years and then going out for a ribeye? Would insurers check on people?

There have been plenty of cases where sandbaggers filed workers’ comp insurance claims, insisting they couldn’t work because of on-the-job injuries, then were caught on videotape playing basketball, hiking, building an addition on the house, etc. If insurers start offering cheaper rates for vegetarians, will they hire camera-wielding spies to follow policyholders to restaurants?

If so, I sense a business opportunity. There are all kinds of meatless foods out there designed to look and taste like meat: soyburgers, veggie hotdogs, tofurkeys, etc. Imagine the insurance-discount demand for foods that look like tofu and beans, but are actually made from chicken, beef and pork.

“Yes, waiter, I’ll have the (ahem) veggie chili.” (wink, wink)

“So that’s the— oh, you mean the veggie chili, not the real vegetarian chili.”

“Yes, but please keep your voice down. They may have the place bugged.”

Anyway, that’s not the topic of the post. This is:

Some months back, I wrote a tongue-in-cheek post titled A Vegetarian Diet Will Make You Sick And Crazy. I took the kind of weak-ass observational study that vegetarian zealots like to wave in our faces and (like them) assumed the study actually proved something. But in this case, the study didn’t exactly support the notion that going meatless is the key to a superior life:

A new study from the Medical University of Graz in Austria finds that vegetarians are more physically active, drink less alcohol and smoke less tobacco than those who consume meat in their diets. Vegetarians also have a higher socioeconomic status and a lower body mass index. But the vegetarian diet — characterized by a low consumption of saturated fats and cholesterol that includes increased intake of fruits, vegetables and whole-grain products — carries elevated risks of cancer, allergies and mental health disorders.

A reader recently sent me a link to an article from Women’s Health online that offers similar warnings on the mental-health front:

More and more women are vegging out…of their minds. New research suggests that along with shedding pounds, slashing cancer risk, and boosting life expectancy, vegetarianism could come with lesser-known side effects: Panic attacks. OCD. Depression.

Notice the assumption that vegetarian diets really and truly do slash cancer risk and increase life expectancy. Sure, that’s what some observational studies show – because (as the University of Graz study noted) vegetarians on average are more physically active, drink less alcohol, smoke less, etc. Other observational studies, however, don’t show any difference in life expectancy at all.

But to continue with the article …

Drew Ramsey’s 35-year-old patient had always been fit and active, but her energy had flatlined. When she did manage to drag herself to the gym, it didn’t help. She felt anxious and was often on the verge of tears for no reason, even when she was with friends. Worst of all were her panic attacks, a rare occurrence in the past but now so common that she was afraid of losing her job because she had trouble getting out of bed, and she’d become terrified of taking the New York City subway.

It may sound like an episode of House, but Ramsey had a hunch. He’d seen a dramatic link between mood and food before (he even researched it for his forthcoming book Eat Complete), and guessed that his patient’s well-intentioned meat-free diet was the very thing causing her mental deterioration. Sure enough, six weeks after adding animal protein back onto her plate, her energy rebounded and her panic attacks dropped by 75 percent.

But she’ll be slashing her cancer risk and extending her life expectancy while lying in bed and feeling anxious.

It’s tough to argue with the science—and with a movement that’s been endorsed by everyone from Gandhi to Beyonce.

Say what? I argue with the science all the time – because most of it is crap.

And it’s natural to assume that peak mental health and a perpetually blissed-out attitude are just two more side effects of the glowing vegetarian lifestyle.

No, what’s natural is eating meat. Humans have been doing it forever. Chimpanzees (our nearest genetic relatives) not only hunt, they do it in organized packs with assigned roles.

So it was startling last year when Australian researchers revealed that vegetarians reported being less optimistic about the future than meat eaters. What’s more, they were 18 percent more likely to report depression and 28 percent more likely to suffer panic attacks and anxiety. A separate German study backs this up, finding that vegetarians were 15 percent more prone to depressive conditions and twice as likely to suffer anxiety disorders.

I’m not startled. I was a vegetarian.

“We don’t know if a vegetarian diet causes depression and anxiety, or if people who are predisposed to those mental conditions gravitate toward vegetarianism,” says Emily Deans, M.D., a Boston psychiatrist who studies the link between food and mood.

True, we don’t want to confuse correlation with causation. But let’s recall what happened with Dr. Ramsey’s patient:

Sure enough, six weeks after adding animal protein back onto her plate, her energy rebounded and her panic attacks dropped by 75 percent.

If she was just a person who happened to have a mental condition and gravitated towards vegetarianism, then it’s quite a coincidence that after adding meat to her diet, her energy rebounded and her panic attacks dropped by 75 percent.  But whichever way the arrow of causality points — going vegetarian causes mental problems in some people, or people with mental problems are more likely to go vegetarian — it’s not a flattering correlation.

Name some “brain foods.” Well, there’s avocado. Olive oil. Nuts. Red meat? Not so much. Yet anthropological evidence shows that, long before we could choose to subsist on cashew cheese and tofu, animal flesh provided the energy-dense calories necessary to fuel evolving cerebellums. Without meat, we’d never have matured beyond the mental capacity of herbivores like gorillas.

Which is one of the many reasons I don’t believe meat causes the diseases it’s sometimes “linked” to in observational studies. Mother Nature isn’t stupid … and it would be stupid to design us so that the food that increased our brain size and made us human also ruined our health.

Just like Drew Ramsey’s patient, Isabel Smith was active and energetic and thought a vegetarian diet was the perfect complement to her health-conscious lifestyle. But after a few weeks sans meat, she found herself uncharacteristically weepy. “I was tired and frustrated and got upset more easily, especially over things that wouldn’t normally bother me,” she says.

Like a blog that promotes a diet that includes meat? I’m pretty sure I’ve heard from some of those easily-upset people. I usually tell them to go eat a steak and get back to me, but they rarely do.

Shortly after she started eating meat again, she noticed an uptick in her mood.

So much for that whole eating meat makes you angry and aggressive nonsense.

The twist? Smith is a registered dietitian. One who now understands personally what she studies professionally: Not everyone is cut out for a life without meat.

Yes, but you see, we need to discourage people from eating meat to save the planet. The Anointed have spoken.  And if a lot of people who give up meat because of “price reform” end up feeling depressed and having panic attacks … well, too bad.  That’s the price they have to pay.

Besides, they may get a discount on life insurance.


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177 thoughts on “A Vegetarian Diet Will Make You Sick And Crazy, Part Two

  1. lemoutongris

    Fun fact: I recently talked with 2 Indians, one who was raised vegetarian and his wife/girlfriend (not sure) who became one. Anyway, when they got a cat they were clueless as to how to feed it. As they started researching, they started to realize that THEIR systems too might not be able to handle all those carbs…

    They are in their mid 40s – you wouldn’t believe it by their looks – and feel better than ever. Just like libertarianism, only self-teaching can enlighten people.

    Hopefully the vegetarian life-insurance scheme doesn’t come true. Healthcare is already complicated as it is in the US right now…

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      And it’s going to get way, way more complicated. Some of the most onerous regulations in ObamaCare don’t kick in until 2017 … conveniently, just after the 2016 presidential election is over and His Highness is leaving office.

      Reply
    2. Michael Cohen

      As a salesman many of my store-owner customers were vegetarian Indians. Many were severly diabetic, and had been so for a long time. Many had long standing inflammatory diseases. The diet of the subcontinent is inherently carby with lots of refined grains, pulses and added sugar. Their situations were made worse buy the current “low fat, especially saturated fat” dietary “wisdom”. Non-fat yoghurt and dairy replaced traditional full fat milk products. Ghee is replaced by hydrogenated vegetable oils resembling Ghee. More than one of my vegetarian/diabetic customers in their 40’s and 50’s has suddenly died of a heart attack.

      Reply
      1. JillOz

        This is ironic . While I do love the dish dhal (lentils) my primary choice when I go Indian is meat/veg ie chicken, lamb with spinach.

        Well-made Indian food is terrific.

        It’s a shame they don’t switch their foods around.

        It’s strange though that often with eating meat, people will have an unhealthy lifestyle, drinking, no exercise. The lower end of the meat-eaters’ pool?

        I think you wrote about this Tom, what’s that all about?

        Reply
  2. chris

    Well, insurance already asks if you smoke and no one follows you around to check whether that is accurate or not.

    In my experience, albeit this being entirely personal anecdote, people become vegetarians relatively early in life for moral reasons or become vegetarians because its a way of strictly controlling some aspect of their lives (diet). In the latter case, I do feel there is a correlation between people already with mental problems (or unhappiness etc, not necessarily a medical level mental problem) and people who decide to become vegetarian. The happy person doesn’t cut out things they have enjoyed eating (meat); its people who want a change in their lives that look for a way to make that change, and diet is an easy target.

    Also, I don’t think that many non vegetarians appreciate that a vegetarian diet requires a bit more effort than just removing meat from a dish. So early period vegetarians (6 weeks in etc) may well just have a terrible vegetarian diet (lack of iron etc).

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      Those who become vegetarians because they believe it’s a healthier diet (as in my case) are the most likely to quit if their health declines. The moral vegetarians see eating meat as sin, so it requires something akin to a religious conversion to change their minds.

      Reply
    2. Joe O

      Actually, Chris: My employer makes us take a cotinine test if you declare that you’re ‘tobacco free’ in order to continue getting our yearly 20% discount.

      Unfortunately it’s the same health screening where they check all the other silly markers of health and recommend people follow the Food Plate and what-not. But there’s at least accountability, contrary to your first point.

      Reply
  3. j

    “…if a lot of people who give up meat because of “price reform” end up feeling depressed and having panic attacks … well, too bad.

    Besides, they may get a discount on life insurance.”

    Or get prescribed some mind-altering substance..

    Grain subsidies, statins, anti-meat/fat hysteria, psychotropic drugs, global wa..uh climate change, “social justice”..
    Somehow, these all seem connected..population control much? Maybe I’m just paranoid..I’ll blame the fluoride..

    Reply
  4. A Different Tom

    No, no, they weren’t depressed, miserable and sluggish. That was just their bodies detoxing from all that vile decayinganimalflesh they had poisoned themselves with. It would have cleared up in a few decades. No dedication, that’s their problem.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      Heh-heh. Reminds me of the explanation offered by a vegan zealot when I asked him to explain why, if it’s meat that causes cancer, Linda McCartney died of cancer. He replied that the damage was done back in her meat-eating days. To which I replied, if 30 years of going meatless isn’t enough to avoid the damage, there’s no point in me giving up meat now. I’ll be 87 in 30 years.

      Reply
  5. lemoutongris

    Fun fact: I recently talked with 2 Indians, one who was raised vegetarian and his wife/girlfriend (not sure) who became one. Anyway, when they got a cat they were clueless as to how to feed it. As they started researching, they started to realize that THEIR systems too might not be able to handle all those carbs…

    They are in their mid 40s – you wouldn’t believe it by their looks – and feel better than ever. Just like libertarianism, only self-teaching can enlighten people.

    Hopefully the vegetarian life-insurance scheme doesn’t come true. Healthcare is already complicated as it is in the US right now…

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      And it’s going to get way, way more complicated. Some of the most onerous regulations in ObamaCare don’t kick in until 2017 … conveniently, just after the 2016 presidential election is over and His Highness is leaving office.

      Reply
    2. Michael Cohen

      As a salesman many of my store-owner customers were vegetarian Indians. Many were severly diabetic, and had been so for a long time. Many had long standing inflammatory diseases. The diet of the subcontinent is inherently carby with lots of refined grains, pulses and added sugar. Their situations were made worse buy the current “low fat, especially saturated fat” dietary “wisdom”. Non-fat yoghurt and dairy replaced traditional full fat milk products. Ghee is replaced by hydrogenated vegetable oils resembling Ghee. More than one of my vegetarian/diabetic customers in their 40’s and 50’s has suddenly died of a heart attack.

      Reply
      1. JillOz

        This is ironic . While I do love the dish dhal (lentils) my primary choice when I go Indian is meat/veg ie chicken, lamb with spinach.

        Well-made Indian food is terrific.

        It’s a shame they don’t switch their foods around.

        It’s strange though that often with eating meat, people will have an unhealthy lifestyle, drinking, no exercise. The lower end of the meat-eaters’ pool?

        I think you wrote about this Tom, what’s that all about?

        Reply
        1. Tom Naughton Post author

          It’s the adherer/non-adherer phenomenon. If you convince the public that a particular food is bad for them, the health-conscious people will eat less of it. People who don’t give a @#$% will continue eating more it. If I could convince everyone that cucumbers cause cancer, within a few years we’d notice that sick people eat more cucumbers than healthy people.

          Reply
  6. chris

    Well, insurance already asks if you smoke and no one follows you around to check whether that is accurate or not.

    In my experience, albeit this being entirely personal anecdote, people become vegetarians relatively early in life for moral reasons or become vegetarians because its a way of strictly controlling some aspect of their lives (diet). In the latter case, I do feel there is a correlation between people already with mental problems (or unhappiness etc, not necessarily a medical level mental problem) and people who decide to become vegetarian. The happy person doesn’t cut out things they have enjoyed eating (meat); its people who want a change in their lives that look for a way to make that change, and diet is an easy target.

    Also, I don’t think that many non vegetarians appreciate that a vegetarian diet requires a bit more effort than just removing meat from a dish. So early period vegetarians (6 weeks in etc) may well just have a terrible vegetarian diet (lack of iron etc).

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      Those who become vegetarians because they believe it’s a healthier diet (as in my case) are the most likely to quit if their health declines. The moral vegetarians see eating meat as sin, so it requires something akin to a religious conversion to change their minds.

      Reply
    2. Joe O

      Actually, Chris: My employer makes us take a cotinine test if you declare that you’re ‘tobacco free’ in order to continue getting our yearly 20% discount.

      Unfortunately it’s the same health screening where they check all the other silly markers of health and recommend people follow the Food Plate and what-not. But there’s at least accountability, contrary to your first point.

      Reply
    3. Joe

      Yeah but insurance companies can perform tests if they have reasons to think you may have been smoking. For instance, if you get lung cancer and you lied about smoking to your insurance company, they could potentially deny or limit the amount of coverage you receive.

      Reply
  7. j

    “…if a lot of people who give up meat because of “price reform” end up feeling depressed and having panic attacks … well, too bad.

    Besides, they may get a discount on life insurance.”

    Or get prescribed some mind-altering substance..

    Grain subsidies, statins, anti-meat/fat hysteria, psychotropic drugs, global wa..uh climate change, “social justice”..
    Somehow, these all seem connected..population control much? Maybe I’m just paranoid..I’ll blame the fluoride..

    Reply
    1. JillOz

      No, you’re nmot paranoid. Some of it is sheer stupidity and cupidity, some of it is part of UN Agenda 21, especially the going meatless campaign.

      Reply
  8. A Different Tom

    No, no, they weren’t depressed, miserable and sluggish. That was just their bodies detoxing from all that vile decayinganimalflesh they had poisoned themselves with. It would have cleared up in a few decades. No dedication, that’s their problem.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      Heh-heh. Reminds me of the explanation offered by a vegan zealot when I asked him to explain why, if it’s meat that causes cancer, Linda McCartney died of cancer. He replied that the damage was done back in her meat-eating days. To which I replied, if 30 years of going meatless isn’t enough to avoid the damage, there’s no point in me giving up meat now. I’ll be 87 in 30 years.

      Reply
  9. Tom Welsh

    “What’s to stop people from entering 25 years and then going out for a ribeye? Would insurers check on people?”

    Your argument is logical, and I accept it in the context of this blog. But In fact I suspect that this is a well-thought-out part of the insurance game. In general, what’s to stop people lying in their application and then claiming, perhaps years later?

    As you’ll be aware, legally insurance policies are a type of contract that must be entered “uberimae fidei” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uberrima_fides – that is, in the greatest of good faith. You are supposed to hold nothing back, even if it might reasonably appear irrelevant.

    So the insurance companies don’t worry too much about applicants who lie. They just issue the policy, sit back and collect premiums for however many years – and then, IF there is a claim, they simply don’t pay it. There’s no downside, statistically speaking.

    In the case you cite, the insurance company issues the policy, collects the premiums, and then – when a claim is made – sends out an adjuster who needs just one photograph, or just one credible witness, to void the policy and let the company keep tends of thousands of dollars and give nothing in return.

    Reply
    1. Dan

      It’s not quite that simple. While the lofty concept of “uberimae fidei” is one that insurance lawyers often cite, insurance contracts are for the most part in the United States creatures of state law and courts, subject to the regulation of the state insurance department.

      A fundamental fraud that goes to the very essence of the insurance contract, e.g., setting one’s home on fire to collect on property insurance, failing to reveal on a life insurance application that one has been diagnosed with cancer and given only months to live, etc., may indeed void coverage altogether. Those are cases of fraud “in factum.” But courts beginning in the late 19th century have been more reluctant to void policies for lesser misstatements.

      Just as an example, suppose that one says one is a non-smoker on a life insurance policy application to receive non-smoker rates and dies of smoking-related lung cancer not in a few months, but years later. Further suppose that the insured’s misstatement is discovered post-mortem by the insurer. In many states (maybe all, certainly mine), the insurer would still have to pay the death benefit, although they may get to reduce it to what the premium payments would have bought at smoker’s rates. At most this would be a reduction in coverage (perhaps a substantial one), but not an elimination of it.

      If the misstatement is not one which would have dramatically altered the premium and the insured dies after the policy’s probationary period (usually two years), it is hard to imagine an insurer being permitted to reduce the death benefit by much, much less being able to void the policy.

      Reply
    2. KevinF

      Sorry that’s nonsense. Even if an insurer markets to current vegetarians, there’d certainly be nothing in the contract stating that no claims would be paid if the insured then adopts the habit of eating meat subsequent to buying the policy. There are policies that adjust the benefit based on this or that activity at time of death (like flying or act of war), but not on some presumption of insured’d diet. That would be an absurd thing to put in an insurance contract because 1) only an idiot would buy that policy and 2) as a practical matter it would be unenforceable, it would be lawsuit city every single time any insurance company tried to deny a claim based on meat-eating. It would simply be far too easy for beneficiaries to sue and win, and would be incredible bad publicity.

      Reply
  10. Ulfric Douglas

    Well, intrigued I looked up Tofurky and you weren’t being sarcastic!
    Although rather than looking like a turkey it looks like a haggis.
    Oats and innards are better for you than soya anything.

    Reply
      1. Woalter Bushell

        Just change the “r” in tofurkey into a “c” not a big change in shape or pronounce it “to-*furk*-ey. A similar joke showed up in the comic strip “Mike du Jour about the proper syllabification of “Turd ucken.”

        Reply
  11. Justin

    As a self-diagnosed optimist, I can’t necessarily vouch for how a vegetarian diet would make me feel, but I do know that my optimistic outlook on life definitely started after I went LCHF. It also could be that I turned 30 and reflected on the type of person I wanted to be, but I know a lot of people older than me who don’t appear to have made that decision or have that kind of self-awareness. Maybe diet was involved?

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      I think diet is a huge part of it. But I suspect the elevated mood many of us experienced after going LCHF has more to do with getting off the blood-sugar rollercoaster than with eating more meat per se.

      Reply
  12. Tom Welsh

    “What’s to stop people from entering 25 years and then going out for a ribeye? Would insurers check on people?”

    Your argument is logical, and I accept it in the context of this blog. But In fact I suspect that this is a well-thought-out part of the insurance game. In general, what’s to stop people lying in their application and then claiming, perhaps years later?

    As you’ll be aware, legally insurance policies are a type of contract that must be entered “uberimae fidei” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uberrima_fides – that is, in the greatest of good faith. You are supposed to hold nothing back, even if it might reasonably appear irrelevant.

    So the insurance companies don’t worry too much about applicants who lie. They just issue the policy, sit back and collect premiums for however many years – and then, IF there is a claim, they simply don’t pay it. There’s no downside, statistically speaking.

    In the case you cite, the insurance company issues the policy, collects the premiums, and then – when a claim is made – sends out an adjuster who needs just one photograph, or just one credible witness, to void the policy and let the company keep tends of thousands of dollars and give nothing in return.

    Reply
    1. Dan

      It’s not quite that simple. While the lofty concept of “uberimae fidei” is one that insurance lawyers often cite, insurance contracts are for the most part in the United States creatures of state law and courts, subject to the regulation of the state insurance department.

      A fundamental fraud that goes to the very essence of the insurance contract, e.g., setting one’s home on fire to collect on property insurance, failing to reveal on a life insurance application that one has been diagnosed with cancer and given only months to live, etc., may indeed void coverage altogether. Those are cases of fraud “in factum.” But courts beginning in the late 19th century have been more reluctant to void policies for lesser misstatements.

      Just as an example, suppose that one says one is a non-smoker on a life insurance policy application to receive non-smoker rates and dies of smoking-related lung cancer not in a few months, but years later. Further suppose that the insured’s misstatement is discovered post-mortem by the insurer. In many states (maybe all, certainly mine), the insurer would still have to pay the death benefit, although they may get to reduce it to what the premium payments would have bought at smoker’s rates. At most this would be a reduction in coverage (perhaps a substantial one), but not an elimination of it.

      If the misstatement is not one which would have dramatically altered the premium and the insured dies after the policy’s probationary period (usually two years), it is hard to imagine an insurer being permitted to reduce the death benefit by much, much less being able to void the policy.

      Reply
    2. KevinF

      Sorry that’s nonsense. Even if an insurer markets to current vegetarians, there’d certainly be nothing in the contract stating that no claims would be paid if the insured then adopts the habit of eating meat subsequent to buying the policy. There are policies that adjust the benefit based on this or that activity at time of death (like flying or act of war), but not on some presumption of insured’d diet. That would be an absurd thing to put in an insurance contract because 1) only an idiot would buy that policy and 2) as a practical matter it would be unenforceable, it would be lawsuit city every single time any insurance company tried to deny a claim based on meat-eating. It would simply be far too easy for beneficiaries to sue and win, and would be incredible bad publicity.

      Reply
  13. Bob Niland

    Just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, and given that nobody yet knows what a fully optimized human diet looks like precisely, it is possible to eat what is likely a healthy vegetarian or even vegan diet (but probably not fruitarian).

    The problem is that it requires so many supplements that almost no one does it. Furthermore, some of these supplements, in vegetarian and/or vegan form, have only recently become available.

    Any vegetarian who does attend to the problematic essential nutrients cannot escape the conclusion that there is no way that this could be an ancestral diet. I’ve identified 13 such nutrients so far, 11 of which have adverse neurological consequences if deficient.

    So I suspect that most vegetarians, being unwilling to confront this, ignore these nutrients, consume ineffective forms or alternatives, or simply seek the advice some dogmatic guru who will dismiss their importance…
    …then quietly go crazy, if they live long enough.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      Exactly. Some vegan zealots insist that humans are natural vegetarians, but then to avoid becoming ill, they have to take supplements that weren’t available to those “natural” vegetarians. It makes no sense.

      Reply
      1. T33CH

        Hey Tom,

        India, the country that eats the least amount of meat, especially red meat, still has CVD in as its number one killer (even in rural areas) and they have a diabetes incidence rate that is similar to the US. You would think that India would be so much healthier because of their historical adherence to vegetarianism.

        Here is an article that talks about CVD and vegetarianism.

        “Veggie Indians more prone to heart disease”
        http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-veggie-indians-more-prone-to-heart-disease-1443372

        When I have brought this up to vegan/vegetarians, they dismiss it away and blame it on dairy even though their total animal product consumption is still super low.

        Reply
        1. Tom Naughton

          Yup, they’re only interested in the cherry-picked examples that support being a vegetarian.

          Reply
      2. Guy Cool

        “Humans were meant to be vegetarians! We don’t have any sharp teeth so we weren’t meant to eat meat, humans were meant to be vegetarians and all the nutrients we need can be found in non meat sources!”

        *proceeds to inject a syringe of B12 into arm”

        Reply
        1. Michael Cohen

          Vegan and vegetarians using the above argument overlook the fact that man has evolved the sharpest, deadliest, most efficient “fangs and claws” in the animal kingdom. They are called tools. Using these “fangs and claws” in all of their ancient and modern forms, humans do not need to have them “built-in” to their hands and heads.

          Reply
        2. Firebird

          I’ve always questioned the integrity of a B-12 OTC supplement that claims to be a “vegetarian formula”.

          Reply
        3. Woalter Bushell

          Now B12 can be obtained by bad hygiene (like not being scrupulous about cleaning underground vegetables grown in manured soil) and a higher than 1st world countries and America standards of insect parts in food particularly grains.

          I remember reading about Jains in England falling into the trap due to the tighter standards about insect parts in grains.

          You’re going to have a *very* rough go at being a vegan if your conversion of beta carotene to retinol is deficient and some people have no ability at all to make retinol which is true vitamin A. I think this was a major part of Lierre Keith’s problems with the vegan diet. Not to mention a low fat diet hinders absorption of nutrients.

          Reply
          1. Firebird

            Espcially those nutrients that are fat soluble. I still shake my head at the low fat cooking show that use to run on cable. The woman showing the audience how to make a low fat spinach salad with fat-free raspberry vinagraite. All that Vitamin E peed away.

            Reply
          2. Galina L.

            I guess one has to be very metabolically gifted to get enough vitamine B12 from unwashed vegetables. I eat animal products and a red meat (60 – 70 grams of total protein)every day, and have to supplement vitB12 to keep the level sufficient.

            Reply
            1. Woalter Bushell

              Depends on what you mean by metabolically gifted. People vary all over the lot. Historically vegan populations have weeded out the low gifted one probably in childhood and babyhood where most children die under 3rd world condition. “They just died or were never born or perhaps it was a named syndrome with no known cure.

              Fortunately most vegans give it up shortly after joining, usually from social pressure. I suppose the rest drop or loosen ties with non-vegans and tie into
              the vegan social scene making it *hard* to quit. You want all your erstwhile friends to despise and reject you. It’s hard. Many people keep an outward show of religion to keep their friends and family and in some communities the only place to MOSen women is the churches.

  14. Firebird

    “Without meat, we’d never have matured beyond the mental capacity of herbivores like gorillas.”

    Some haven’t. 😉

    Reply
  15. DAVID

    The only vegetarians I knew who were robust was the family of a high school classmate. She said they raised chickens and she ate enough eggs that she may as well have been a meat eater. The family loved cheese and sour cream too and junk food was avoided. If they eat less animal product now hopefully they’ll find the answer if their health declines.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      I’ve had some vegetarian and vegan friends over the years. I wouldn’t trade health status with any of them, especially the vegans.

      Reply
  16. Ulfric Douglas

    Well, intrigued I looked up Tofurky and you weren’t being sarcastic!
    Although rather than looking like a turkey it looks like a haggis.
    Oats and innards are better for you than soya anything.

    Reply
      1. Woalter Bushell

        Just change the “r” in tofurkey into a “c” not a big change in shape or pronounce it “to-*furk*-ey. A similar joke showed up in the comic strip “Mike du Jour about the proper syllabification of “Turd ucken.”

        Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      Heh-heh … not exactly, but there are moral vegetarians who eat eggs and dairy because an animal isn’t killed to produce them.

      Reply
      1. Alex

        But, animals ARE killed to produce them! Egg and dairy production both produce slaughtered animals as byproducts (unwanted males and older, less productive females.) Those moral vegetarians are mush-headed idiots if they think eggs and dairy are somehow morally superior to animal flesh foods.

        Reply
        1. Tom Naughton

          Lierre Keith did a bangup job in “The Vegetarian Myth” of demonstrating that even if you’re a dedicated vegan, critters die so you can have food on your plate.

          Reply
          1. j

            And not just food..

            vi.sualize.us/the_myth_vegan_cow_meat_picture_herZ.html

            “There’s no such thing as a vegan”..

            Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      Jeez, the nonsense these people believe. Such as:

      ‘You can’t really call yourself an environmentalist if you’re still consuming animals. You just can’t,’ said Amis, who, along with her Avatar-director husband, went vegan in 2012 after watching the documentary Forks Over Knives.

      Yes, you sure as heck can if you raise animals in pastures and produce topsoil as a result.

      A staggering 51 per cent or more of global greenhouse-gas emissions are caused by animal agriculture, according to a report published by the Worldwatch Institute.

      And yet our wacky BBC reporter claims it’s 15 percent — the same as every car, ship, plane and train combined. These loons can’t even agree on their hysterical figures.

      Reply
          1. S

            I believe the 15% (or 18%?) vs. 51% may have arisen from this worldwatch report: http://www.worldwatch.org/files/pdf/Livestock%20and%20Climate%20Change.pdf

            I haven’t read it in depth, but I’m sure you’ll at least get some entertainment from page 16 onwards.

            To be honest, it is a worry. You can talk all you want about “sustainable, pasture-fed beef”, or whatever, but the truth is that that cannot feed the world. How do we reconcile the fact that agriculture is so environmentally detrimental (and I’m not just talking climate change), yet is apparently the healthiest way to eat?

            Reply
        1. Woalter Bushell

          Could be the difference between agriculture and total emissions. But remember, plant food has fibre and post consumption fermentation is also a source of methane.

          The biggest contribution of methane is from fossil fuel production. Food waste is another major source as this is likely to produce methane.

          Proper raising of cattle builds topsoil and hence sequesters carbon.

          I wonder if any of the studies has taken into account the loss of soil in plant agriculture as the carbon from the soil goes directly into the water.

          Reply
      1. Walter

        BTW: The question he needs to answer is “Who died and appointed YOU D-G?”.

        What’s he trying to do make meat eaters leave the environmental movement? Which is more likely than he will convince people to give up meat.

        Veganism is genocide.

        Reply
  17. Justin

    As a self-diagnosed optimist, I can’t necessarily vouch for how a vegetarian diet would make me feel, but I do know that my optimistic outlook on life definitely started after I went LCHF. It also could be that I turned 30 and reflected on the type of person I wanted to be, but I know a lot of people older than me who don’t appear to have made that decision or have that kind of self-awareness. Maybe diet was involved?

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      I think diet is a huge part of it. But I suspect the elevated mood many of us experienced after going LCHF has more to do with getting off the blood-sugar rollercoaster than with eating more meat per se.

      Reply
    2. JillOz

      Diet is definitely involved, I feel that way myself. Unfortunately I don’t handle crises in my life any better, but unadulterated beef does help my mood a bit. 🙂

      Reply
  18. Bob Niland

    Just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, and given that nobody yet knows what a fully optimized human diet looks like precisely, it is possible to eat what is likely a healthy vegetarian or even vegan diet (but probably not fruitarian).

    The problem is that it requires so many supplements that almost no one does it. Furthermore, some of these supplements, in vegetarian and/or vegan form, have only recently become available.

    Any vegetarian who does attend to the problematic essential nutrients cannot escape the conclusion that there is no way that this could be an ancestral diet. I’ve identified 13 such nutrients so far, 11 of which have adverse neurological consequences if deficient.

    So I suspect that most vegetarians, being unwilling to confront this, ignore these nutrients, consume ineffective forms or alternatives, or simply seek the advice some dogmatic guru who will dismiss their importance…
    …then quietly go crazy, if they live long enough.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      Exactly. Some vegan zealots insist that humans are natural vegetarians, but then to avoid becoming ill, they have to take supplements that weren’t available to those “natural” vegetarians. It makes no sense.

      Reply
      1. T33CH

        Hey Tom,

        India, the country that eats the least amount of meat, especially red meat, still has CVD in as its number one killer (even in rural areas) and they have a diabetes incidence rate that is similar to the US. You would think that India would be so much healthier because of their historical adherence to vegetarianism.

        Here is an article that talks about CVD and vegetarianism.

        “Veggie Indians more prone to heart disease”
        http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-veggie-indians-more-prone-to-heart-disease-1443372

        When I have brought this up to vegan/vegetarians, they dismiss it away and blame it on dairy even though their total animal product consumption is still super low.

        Reply
      2. Guy Cool

        “Humans were meant to be vegetarians! We don’t have any sharp teeth so we weren’t meant to eat meat, humans were meant to be vegetarians and all the nutrients we need can be found in non meat sources!”

        *proceeds to inject a syringe of B12 into arm”

        Reply
        1. Michael Cohen

          Vegan and vegetarians using the above argument overlook the fact that man has evolved the sharpest, deadliest, most efficient “fangs and claws” in the animal kingdom. They are called tools. Using these “fangs and claws” in all of their ancient and modern forms, humans do not need to have them “built-in” to their hands and heads.

          Reply
        2. Woalter Bushell

          Now B12 can be obtained by bad hygiene (like not being scrupulous about cleaning underground vegetables grown in manured soil) and a higher than 1st world countries and America standards of insect parts in food particularly grains.

          I remember reading about Jains in England falling into the trap due to the tighter standards about insect parts in grains.

          You’re going to have a *very* rough go at being a vegan if your conversion of beta carotene to retinol is deficient and some people have no ability at all to make retinol which is true vitamin A. I think this was a major part of Lierre Keith’s problems with the vegan diet. Not to mention a low fat diet hinders absorption of nutrients.

          Reply
          1. Firebird

            Espcially those nutrients that are fat soluble. I still shake my head at the low fat cooking show that use to run on cable. The woman showing the audience how to make a low fat spinach salad with fat-free raspberry vinagraite. All that Vitamin E peed away.

            Reply
          2. Galina L.

            I guess one has to be very metabolically gifted to get enough vitamine B12 from unwashed vegetables. I eat animal products and a red meat (60 – 70 grams of total protein)every day, and have to supplement vitB12 to keep the level sufficient.

            Reply
            1. Matrixik

              I like it probably because my grandma always made them with onions and apples (mostly poultry livers).

            2. Woalter Bushell

              Perhaps chopped chicken liver? Has the advantage of less iron than beef liver. Or Argentine desiccated liver in powder form so you can take a tablespoon in water with stevia (if necessary).

              In either case, glug, glug, glug and you’re done. I think about every other day a tablespoon works out to about the equivalent of 1/4 pound once a week as the recommendation used to be.

              Do you eat to live or live to eat?!

            3. Tom Naughton Post author

              I could maybe handle chicken livers. My mom used to make liver and onions. She and The Older Brother (if memory serves) liked the stuff; I couldn’t stand it. Still can’t.

            4. Bob Niland

              re: Eat more liver…

              …but not from CAFO animals.

              Second hand antibiotics, growth hormones and feed toxins are on the list of things to opportunistically avoid in muscle meats, but they are concentrated in liver, which does detox as one of its main jobs.

              Seek pastured organic if organ meats are on the menu. If you raise your own chickens, and use commercial feed (esp. “medicated”), consider putting them on an organic feed sometime prior to processing.

            5. Galina L.

              As far as I know, liver does not accumulate toxins, it is dealing with toxins by transforming and eliminating, and some of its sells get destroy in a process, but remaining sells should not contain harmful substances.

            6. Woalter Bushell

              Depends on what you mean by metabolically gifted. People vary all over the lot. Historically vegan populations have weeded out the low gifted one probably in childhood and babyhood where most children die under 3rd world condition. “They just died or were never born or perhaps it was a named syndrome with no known cure.

              Fortunately most vegans give it up shortly after joining, usually from social pressure. I suppose the rest drop or loosen ties with non-vegans and tie into
              the vegan social scene making it *hard* to quit. You want all your erstwhile friends to despise and reject you. It’s hard. Many people keep an outward show of religion to keep their friends and family and in some communities the only place to MOSen women is the churches.

  19. Firebird

    “Without meat, we’d never have matured beyond the mental capacity of herbivores like gorillas.”

    Some haven’t. 😉

    Reply
  20. DAVID

    The only vegetarians I knew who were robust was the family of a high school classmate. She said they raised chickens and she ate enough eggs that she may as well have been a meat eater. The family loved cheese and sour cream too and junk food was avoided. If they eat less animal product now hopefully they’ll find the answer if their health declines.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      I’ve had some vegetarian and vegan friends over the years. I wouldn’t trade health status with any of them, especially the vegans.

      Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      Heh-heh … not exactly, but there are moral vegetarians who eat eggs and dairy because an animal isn’t killed to produce them.

      Reply
      1. Alex

        But, animals ARE killed to produce them! Egg and dairy production both produce slaughtered animals as byproducts (unwanted males and older, less productive females.) Those moral vegetarians are mush-headed idiots if they think eggs and dairy are somehow morally superior to animal flesh foods.

        Reply
        1. Tom Naughton Post author

          Lierre Keith did a bangup job in “The Vegetarian Myth” of demonstrating that even if you’re a dedicated vegan, critters die so you can have food on your plate.

          Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      Jeez, the nonsense these people believe. Such as:

      ‘You can’t really call yourself an environmentalist if you’re still consuming animals. You just can’t,’ said Amis, who, along with her Avatar-director husband, went vegan in 2012 after watching the documentary Forks Over Knives.

      Yes, you sure as heck can if you raise animals in pastures and produce topsoil as a result.

      A staggering 51 per cent or more of global greenhouse-gas emissions are caused by animal agriculture, according to a report published by the Worldwatch Institute.

      And yet our wacky BBC reporter claims it’s 15 percent — the same as every car, ship, plane and train combined. These loons can’t even agree on their hysterical figures.

      Reply
          1. S

            I believe the 15% (or 18%?) vs. 51% may have arisen from this worldwatch report: http://www.worldwatch.org/files/pdf/Livestock%20and%20Climate%20Change.pdf

            I haven’t read it in depth, but I’m sure you’ll at least get some entertainment from page 16 onwards.

            To be honest, it is a worry. You can talk all you want about “sustainable, pasture-fed beef”, or whatever, but the truth is that that cannot feed the world. How do we reconcile the fact that agriculture is so environmentally detrimental (and I’m not just talking climate change), yet is apparently the healthiest way to eat?

            Reply
            1. Tom Naughton Post author

              Those meatless alternatives look awesome, don’t they? Soy protein and wheat gluten … now what could possibly be the harm from filling up on those?

            2. Bob Niland

              «You can talk all you want about “sustainable, pasture-fed beef”, or whatever, but the truth is that that cannot feed the world.»

              Check out Joel Salatin (Polyface Farms) for just how much food can be sustainably produced per acre by a phased pastured operation – one that is actually building up soil, too.

              CAFO is not the answer. Industrial scale agriculture of any sort is not the answer. The answer is not something found in today’s line-up of agronomic straw men. Reverting to hunter-gatherer isn’t an option either.

        1. Woalter Bushell

          Could be the difference between agriculture and total emissions. But remember, plant food has fibre and post consumption fermentation is also a source of methane.

          The biggest contribution of methane is from fossil fuel production. Food waste is another major source as this is likely to produce methane.

          Proper raising of cattle builds topsoil and hence sequesters carbon.

          I wonder if any of the studies has taken into account the loss of soil in plant agriculture as the carbon from the soil goes directly into the water.

          Reply
      1. Walter

        BTW: The question he needs to answer is “Who died and appointed YOU D-G?”.

        What’s he trying to do make meat eaters leave the environmental movement? Which is more likely than he will convince people to give up meat.

        Veganism is genocide.

        Reply
  21. Helen

    If the anointed can get us to fork over billions of dollars to solve the problem of natural climate variability they can most certainly mess with our food choices. Time to build meat-ops in the basement!

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      They already do mess with food choices. Every government institution, including schools, must follow the USDA guidelines.

      Reply
  22. Helen

    If the anointed can get us to fork over billions of dollars to solve the problem of natural climate variability they can most certainly mess with our food choices. Time to build meat-ops in the basement!

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      They already do mess with food choices. Every government institution, including schools, must follow the USDA guidelines.

      Reply
  23. Stephen Richardson

    I predict when you die at the age of 110 the vegans will all come on this blog and say “See? We were right! Meat kills!” The fact that you died in a hang gliding accident won’t persuade them otherwise.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      Of course not. We’re talking about people who claimed Dr. Atkins was obese when he died, even though they knew good and well (because they swiped his hospital records) that he’d been bloated by a drug the doctors injected to try to save his life. Truth isn’t part of the game plan for the zealots.

      Reply
  24. Stephen Richardson

    I predict when you die at the age of 110 the vegans will all come on this blog and say “See? We were right! Meat kills!” The fact that you died in a hang gliding accident won’t persuade them otherwise.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      Of course not. We’re talking about people who claimed Dr. Atkins was obese when he died, even though they knew good and well (because they swiped his hospital records) that he’d been bloated by a drug the doctors injected to try to save his life. Truth isn’t part of the game plan for the zealots.

      Reply
      1. Woalter Bushell

        To be fair, most of those repeating that fiction herd it from there shepherds. Really bad shepherds with no morals. I could call them wolves in sheep’s clothing.

        Reply
  25. Galina L.

    Vegans claim we don’t need farm animals to keep an agricultural soil healthy – planting legumes should be enough.

    Reply
  26. Barry Erdman

    Tom,

    Hi. Greetings from Boulder Colorado! I’m a fan of yours… and have frequently recommended your movie… and wanted to mention that I’m a very low carb Keto lacto ovo vegetarian. I also administrate a Facebook group called, “The Vegetarian Low Carb Diabetic Healthy Diet Society” (search for “veglowcarb”). I have been a veghead since about 1970 during my freshman days in college. When the diagnosis of diabetes came around in 2007, I researched if/how I might be able to continue eating plant based, but modify to high fat low carb… It’s been about 8 years now and I’m proud to say that I’m healthier now than I’ve been in decades… so the presumption that vegetarians eat too many carbs is mostly true, however for some, there is a way to cut the carbs dramatically and follow Dr. Richard Bernstein’s guidelines by staying under 30gms per day. Best regards, -be

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      I imagine it takes some creativity and effort to say LCHF on a vegetarian diet, or especially on a vegan diet.

      Reply
  27. Galina L.

    Vegans claim we don’t need farm animals to keep an agricultural soil healthy – planting legumes should be enough.

    Reply
      1. Galina L.

        Also, I have never heard about desertification being reversed with a soy crop. I guess ruminant animals could be even better for a soil health than chicken.

        Reply
          1. Galina L.

            May be we should stop – lets that magical grain to take care of itself and became the real Earth saving crop. If people want to safe our Earth through their diet, they should equalize fossil fuel use with eating meat.

            Reply
          2. Walter

            The original use of soy was to fix nitrogen. It makes sense, like peanuts as part of soil rotation like peanuts.

            Reply
  28. Barry Erdman

    Tom,

    Hi. Greetings from Boulder Colorado! I’m a fan of yours… and have frequently recommended your movie… and wanted to mention that I’m a very low carb Keto lacto ovo vegetarian. I also administrate a Facebook group called, “The Vegetarian Low Carb Diabetic Healthy Diet Society” (search for “veglowcarb”). I have been a veghead since about 1970 during my freshman days in college. When the diagnosis of diabetes came around in 2007, I researched if/how I might be able to continue eating plant based, but modify to high fat low carb… It’s been about 8 years now and I’m proud to say that I’m healthier now than I’ve been in decades… so the presumption that vegetarians eat too many carbs is mostly true, however for some, there is a way to cut the carbs dramatically and follow Dr. Richard Bernstein’s guidelines by staying under 30gms per day. Best regards, -be

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      I imagine it takes some creativity and effort to say LCHF on a vegetarian diet, or especially on a vegan diet.

      Reply
  29. Mark

    I’m sorry, but as far as I’m concerned, you simply can not tell cause and effect without a survey.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      How would a survey show cause and effect? Surveys are where researchers come up with these correlations — which cannot show causation.

      Reply
    2. JillOz

      You need to allow that some people’s systems work best in different dietary environments. If this works for this guy, fantastic.

      Reply
  30. Thomas E.

    This is probably nothing new to Tom, but I truly believe that we have the technology at our fingertips. All we have to do is decide to abandon the folly known as Ethanol and vegetable oils, that would free up millions of acres of land for grazing animals.

    Then cut out 1/2 to 3/4 of the wheat/corn and get rid of the crap we are eating, and another significant chunk of grazing land. And then last but not least give Alan Savory his life’s wish and open up all “protected” lands to grazing animals, to reverse the desertification.

    That is the simple part, I guess, next turn to gen IV (or better) nuclear reactors for cheap and *safe* power. Fukishima was the last lesson we need to learn, do not place the backup generators at sea level. But honestly, molten sodium bed reactors would not have the same issue even in the scenario, as they are passively safe, and if the emergency power goes, the fuel stops being injected in. But I digress.

    Once we get cheap and reliable power, we turn to 2 technologies, GE has some amazing reverse osmosis water purification/desalization technology, that is actually exceptionally affordable.

    And of course, LED light (with various phosphors) technology were all the interesting wavelengths from the sun are now available, and it is now very possible for many of the vegetables we enjoy to be grown year round in herbicide and pesticide free Hydroponics factories.

    If we had the political will to allow private industry to race that way, we could feed the world with some great food.

    I figure it will be an interesting engineering challenging to figure out how to grow many of the nuts and inside. I mean just physically, imagine coconut or almond trees inside a building? Tomatoes, broccoli and the like are relatively easy.

    We have the technology, it is affordable, and it is already in use. India and China already have Thorium reactors. Australia, Israel, and many other countries are already producing massive volume of desalizated water. And limited hydroponics farms are already using the newer light technology. We know when the whiteman arrived in North America there were several species of ruminants all through the land.

    It’s there, all of it.

    Add in the fact that we are approaching peak population, according to Hans Rosling, and I think it is very reasonable to expect that we could feed every single person on this planet well. And with Hans Rosling’s logic, if we reduce the stresses of life, the cultures currently reproducing at higher rates will more quickly reduce the economic reasons for having many children.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      Yes, absolutely, let’s give up the ethanol nonsense. Then let’s stop subsidizing grains, which is a big part of the economic reason cattle are fed on grains instead of grass.

      As Bjorn Lomborg demonstrated in his film “Cool It,” there are many good ideas out there — and they’re not the result of government command-and-control planning.

      Reply
  31. Thomas E.

    This is probably nothing new to Tom, but I truly believe that we have the technology at our fingertips. All we have to do is decide to abandon the folly known as Ethanol and vegetable oils, that would free up millions of acres of land for grazing animals.

    Then cut out 1/2 to 3/4 of the wheat/corn and get rid of the crap we are eating, and another significant chunk of grazing land. And then last but not least give Alan Savory his life’s wish and open up all “protected” lands to grazing animals, to reverse the desertification.

    That is the simple part, I guess, next turn to gen IV (or better) nuclear reactors for cheap and *safe* power. Fukishima was the last lesson we need to learn, do not place the backup generators at sea level. But honestly, molten sodium bed reactors would not have the same issue even in the scenario, as they are passively safe, and if the emergency power goes, the fuel stops being injected in. But I digress.

    Once we get cheap and reliable power, we turn to 2 technologies, GE has some amazing reverse osmosis water purification/desalization technology, that is actually exceptionally affordable.

    And of course, LED light (with various phosphors) technology were all the interesting wavelengths from the sun are now available, and it is now very possible for many of the vegetables we enjoy to be grown year round in herbicide and pesticide free Hydroponics factories.

    If we had the political will to allow private industry to race that way, we could feed the world with some great food.

    I figure it will be an interesting engineering challenging to figure out how to grow many of the nuts and inside. I mean just physically, imagine coconut or almond trees inside a building? Tomatoes, broccoli and the like are relatively easy.

    We have the technology, it is affordable, and it is already in use. India and China already have Thorium reactors. Australia, Israel, and many other countries are already producing massive volume of desalizated water. And limited hydroponics farms are already using the newer light technology. We know when the whiteman arrived in North America there were several species of ruminants all through the land.

    It’s there, all of it.

    Add in the fact that we are approaching peak population, according to Hans Rosling, and I think it is very reasonable to expect that we could feed every single person on this planet well. And with Hans Rosling’s logic, if we reduce the stresses of life, the cultures currently reproducing at higher rates will more quickly reduce the economic reasons for having many children.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      Yes, absolutely, let’s give up the ethanol nonsense. Then let’s stop subsidizing grains, which is a big part of the economic reason cattle are fed on grains instead of grass.

      As Bjorn Lomborg demonstrated in his film “Cool It,” there are many good ideas out there — and they’re not the result of government command-and-control planning.

      Reply
    2. js290

      Technological salvation is a faith based proposition. You’re almost better off figuring out how to use less energy as you are trying to find cheaper sources.

      Reply
      1. Thomas E.

        js290,

        Got to ask you to expand. If your talking about wind and solar energy saving the world, then yes, those solutions are not a lot better than unicorn farts for powering the world.

        The technology in my post utilizes technology being use commercially, already.

        I am really, really curious how using existing, proven technology, is faith based?

        Reply
  32. Sivashankar

    I always believed savvy medical insurers would get smart by rewarding behaviour that is associated with positive outcomes based on actual evidence. If I were an insurer, I’d reduce premiums for people who can prove that they eat a very low sugar paleo diet (low trig, low fasting insulin, better hdl/trig ratio, lower arterial calcification, etc) and make a killing in profit. Alas, the popular rhetoric is so loud that the saner voices can’t be heard.

    Reply
  33. Sivashankar

    I always believed savvy medical insurers would get smart by rewarding behaviour that is associated with positive outcomes based on actual evidence. If I were an insurer, I’d reduce premiums for people who can prove that they eat a very low sugar paleo diet (low trig, low fasting insulin, better hdl/trig ratio, lower arterial calcification, etc) and make a killing in profit. Alas, the popular rhetoric is so loud that the saner voices can’t be heard.

    Reply
  34. T33CH

    Hey Tom,

    Have you seen the recent article about how vegetarianism, gasp, may not be environmentally friendly as the vegans thought?

    Reply
  35. T33CH

    Hey Tom,

    Have you seen the recent article about how vegetarianism, gasp, may not be environmentally friendly as the vegans thought?

    Reply
  36. Woalter Bushell

    Along with reduced premiums for life insurance a shorter life; you heirs will make out like bandits. Win Win, you cheat the insurance company. Probably though the insurance company just raises the rates for omnivores so they can show you how much you are “saving”. Figures the ve*gans will not notice due to confusion and the “noble” goal, plus the customers will drop the plan early when they can’t make it work.

    Re: Vegans they don’t think humans are animals as the assault on Lierre Keith showed and I remember seeing the head of PETA offering to pay the legal fees of animal rights activists.

    Reply
  37. Woalter Bushell

    Along with reduced premiums for life insurance a shorter life; you heirs will make out like bandits. Win Win, you cheat the insurance company. Probably though the insurance company just raises the rates for omnivores so they can show you how much you are “saving”. Figures the ve*gans will not notice due to confusion and the “noble” goal, plus the customers will drop the plan early when they can’t make it work.

    Re: Vegans they don’t think humans are animals as the assault on Lierre Keith showed and I remember seeing the head of PETA offering to pay the legal fees of animal rights activists.

    Reply
  38. Bob Niland

    Saw this headline today (perhaps fodder for a future FatHead article):
    “Why Did David Bowie and Alan Rickman Keep Their Cancer Diagnoses a Secret?”
    http://www.ihadcancer.com/h3-blog/01-14-2016/Why-Did-David-Bowie-and-Alan-Rickman-Keep-Their-Cancer-Diagnoses-a-Secret
    The article author didn’t make any diet connections.

    I wasn’t able to discover a diet for Alan Rickman, but David Bowie is reported to have been a raw food vegan.

    His reticence to reveal the diagnosis might well have been because “this wasn’t supposed to happen”. Vegetarians and vegans confidently assume that their diet is protective against various things. And if it’s not? Or even the opposite?

    Deaths of celebrities over the last decade, for cancers, suicides and flat out weird diseases, have included a steady stream of veggies. These need to be examined as “black swan” moments, but the V community appears to prefer denial.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton

      Well, I don’t think we can blame vegetables for cancer. But the cancer deaths among vegetarians certainly undermines their belief that meat causes cancer.

      Reply
    2. Walter

      If a vegan gets cancer, I suppose his fellow vegan will accuse him (or her) of “cheating”. Fortunately (for them) probably most vegans cheat methinks. But, in their minds that doesn’t count and they certainly can’t talk about it.

      Reply
  39. Bob Niland

    Saw this headline today (perhaps fodder for a future FatHead article):
    “Why Did David Bowie and Alan Rickman Keep Their Cancer Diagnoses a Secret?”
    http://www.ihadcancer.com/h3-blog/01-14-2016/Why-Did-David-Bowie-and-Alan-Rickman-Keep-Their-Cancer-Diagnoses-a-Secret
    The article author didn’t make any diet connections.

    I wasn’t able to discover a diet for Alan Rickman, but David Bowie is reported to have been a raw food vegan.

    His reticence to reveal the diagnosis might well have been because “this wasn’t supposed to happen”. Vegetarians and vegans confidently assume that their diet is protective against various things. And if it’s not? Or even the opposite?

    Deaths of celebrities over the last decade, for cancers, suicides and flat out weird diseases, have included a steady stream of veggies. These need to be examined as “black swan” moments, but the V community appears to prefer denial.

    Reply
    1. Tom Naughton Post author

      Well, I don’t think we can blame vegetables for cancer. But the cancer deaths among vegetarians certainly undermines their belief that meat causes cancer.

      Reply
      1. Bob Niland

        re: Well, I don’t think we can blame vegetables for cancer.

        My apologies for being unclear. I did not mean to imply that the diet causes cancer, only that it fails to prevent it. Many vegetarian/vegans are counting on the diet to be highly cancer-protective, and they need to consider these premature V-celebrity departures as probable black swan moments. They won’t, of course.

        Also, [whole] vegetables per se are very likely cancer-protective. Eating ONLY vegetables is not. The diet must attend to a range of crucial macro and micronutrients (14 at my last count), some of which cannot be obtained from vegetable sources, other than via modern (non-ancestral) supplements.

        On causation, a couple of things could be said about that:

        1. Many cancer theorists contend that our bodies deal with cancer trigger factors on a continuing basis, and usually stomp incipient tumors. Put another way, the causes of cancer are legion and cannot be entirely eliminated. But if a diet results in more cancer, due to amplified failure-to-prevent, does it matter that it’s not a “cause”?

        2. On the various mitochondrial theories of cancer, there may be some aspects of vegetarian diets that are direct mito disruptors, and thus direct cancer triggers. Many of the so-called vegetable oils (the modern Omega 6 PUFA industrial seed oils high in linoleic) are candidates here. Of course, it’s not just vegetarians that are at risk from these pervasive dogma-diet endorsed agents.

        On 1&2, if a vegetarian diet is high carb, the blood sugar effect is cancer-enabling. If the V diet is high fat, it’s almost certainly going to be heavy with adverse fats, and perhaps cancer-causing.

        re: But the cancer deaths among vegetarians certainly undermines their belief that meat causes cancer.

        That’s a connection they are less likely to make than waking up to “not protective”.

        Reply
    2. Walter

      If a vegan gets cancer, I suppose his fellow vegan will accuse him (or her) of “cheating”. Fortunately (for them) probably most vegans cheat methinks. But, in their minds that doesn’t count and they certainly can’t talk about it.

      Reply
      1. Walter Bushell

        On further review, i think veg*ns are so vociferous because they cheat and project the guilt out onto us. Like the Breatharians who get caught eating hamburgers and coke (which is a vast improvement over the claimed not diet) or go into rapid decline under clinical conditions. Of course breatharianism is much faster than veganism.

        I mean “cheating” doesn’t really count; it’s just backsliding because of a weak nature, and talking about it would be giving permission for others to backslide and they wouldn’t want that.
        The backsliding may be what’s keeping them alive, however.

        Perhaps some people can live a totally vegan lifestyle; that does not prove everyone can.

        Vilhjalmur Stefansson underwent a clinical trial for two years (one year confined and one year checked by metabolic markers) without eating plant food. We should demand at least that period of clinical evidence before we start to credit vegan tales of robust health on a non animal food diet, where B-12 as well as the fat soluble vitamins are basically limited to animal products. OK, one can get K2 from nato, but try to get Americans to eat nato. Then some people can’t make enough cholesterol etcetera.

        Reply
  40. Fern

    Hello!

    Interesting blog article, I enjoy reading different points of view. I personally suffered from depression and anxiety around 4 years ago, became vegetarian (as one person pointed out, perhaps depressed people are more likely to become vegetarian as to gain some level of control in their life? Very interesting observation!) shortly after I came off my meds and further transitioned to a vegan diet (for morall reasons). When I say vegan, I mean a whole food healthy vegan diet with minimal processed foods etc. I have only had one anxiety attack since then, compared to one every single night a few years back. I do supplement b12, which isn’t hard to do really. Plus if you enjoy marmite that’s a nice tasty source for vegans! Actually, the only reason b12 needs to be supplemented in vegan diets is because we wash our veggies! The main reason meat eaters get more is because the livestock gets it in their diet, therefore it is attained by whoever eats the meat. Lots of research done on the matter if you click onto the research databases on reputable websites. So far as I see it I am in a lot better health than I ever have been, physically and mentally. But this is just my case. I just thought I’d mention it as some people looking to switch their diet could be put off, so I would recommend doing a little research of your own before deciding.

    Reply
  41. Fern

    Hello!

    Interesting blog article, I enjoy reading different points of view. I personally suffered from depression and anxiety around 4 years ago, became vegetarian (as one person pointed out, perhaps depressed people are more likely to become vegetarian as to gain some level of control in their life? Very interesting observation!) shortly after I came off my meds and further transitioned to a vegan diet (for morall reasons). When I say vegan, I mean a whole food healthy vegan diet with minimal processed foods etc. I have only had one anxiety attack since then, compared to one every single night a few years back. I do supplement b12, which isn’t hard to do really. Plus if you enjoy marmite that’s a nice tasty source for vegans! Actually, the only reason b12 needs to be supplemented in vegan diets is because we wash our veggies! The main reason meat eaters get more is because the livestock gets it in their diet, therefore it is attained by whoever eats the meat. Lots of research done on the matter if you click onto the research databases on reputable websites. So far as I see it I am in a lot better health than I ever have been, physically and mentally. But this is just my case. I just thought I’d mention it as some people looking to switch their diet could be put off, so I would recommend doing a little research of your own before deciding.

    Reply

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