To The Vegetarian Evangelists …
Posted by Tom Naughton in Bad Science, The Food EvangelistsDear Vegetarian Evangelists:
Since you keep showing up on my blog and trying to convert me to the Church of the Holy Plant-Based Diet, I’ve decided it’s time to explain, once and for all, why you’re wasting your time. You seem like nice people and all, but really, this is getting tiresome. Every time I answer the doorbell, you stand on my porch and repeat the same old sermons by the same old preachers: Joel Fuhrman, John McDougall, Dean Ornish, T. Colin Campbell, etc. This may surprise you, but I don’t find those sermons any more convincing on the 100th repetition than I did on the 10th.
Perhaps if I actually heard a new sermon now and then, I might pay attention, but sadly that’s never the case. So in the future, when you ring the bell, I’m going to simply refer you to this post and bid you good-day.
I know some of you will label this as closed-minded. That’s because to an evangelist, the definition of “closed-minded” is “does not agree with me.” The truth is, I’m being polite. Even though I believe your religion is based on a mixture of emotions and faulty reasoning, I don’t show up on your doorstep and try to talk you out of it. Unlike you, I don’t get emotionally involved in other people’s dietary choices. If you believe it’s better for humans to shun animal foods, please do so. I don’t really care.
But you obviously care very much that I eat meat, since you keep trying to convince me I shouldn’t. Sometimes it seems as if you all got together and said, “There’s a meat-eater who lives in that blog over there! We must take turns showing up on his doorstep and preaching to him until he sees the light!” I give you credit, by the way, for attempting to cloak your arguments in something resembling science. You apparently noticed the “Meat is Murder!” tactic just makes me laugh, so you’ve taken to presenting the same sentiment as a health issue.
Nice try, but it isn’t going work, and I’m going to explain why. I’m not foolish enough to think I’ll change your minds — evangelists aren’t swayed by evidence, as Eric Hoffer explained brilliantly in his book The True Believer – but I figure there’s an outside chance you’ll finally realize I don’t find your arguments the least bit persuasive, in which case you actually might give up and go away.
WHY I’M AN EX-VEGETARIAN … AND WHY I THINK VEGETARIAN EVANGELISTS ARE FULL OF BEANS.
I’ll start with the reason that’s the least valid scientifically, but frankly the only one that ultimately matters to me: my own experience. I was a vegetarian for several years (yes, I’m a fallen-away believer) yet somehow never experienced all the magic health benefits promised to me by your preachers. I did, however, experience arthritis, asthma, psoriasis, gastric reflux, restless legs, lower back pain, irritable bowel, fatigue, slow but consistent weight gain, listlessness, depression, frequent colds, canker sores, cavities, and receding gums that required grafts. None of those ailments were caused by sugar consumption, because I already knew sugar was a sin and didn’t indulge except on very rare occasions. I’ve since learned that some of those ailments were caused by a lack of fat and cholesterol in my diet, while others were likely caused by the lectins found in grains and beans.
Now that I’ve gone over to the dark side of low-carb/paleo eating, I don’t suffer from those ailments anymore — not one. It’s also no longer a battle to keep my weight down. I’m 51 years old, but feel better than when I was 30. I moved to Tennessee a year ago and haven’t even bothered to look for a doctor yet, since I’m never sick.
Given my personal history, I don’t really care how much cherry-picked evidence bean-eaters like Fuhrman and McDougall can cite, because my body told me they’re wrong. I listen to my body. If I whack myself in the head with a rubber mallet and my body says, “You know, that gave me a headache and made me dizzy,” I’m not going to do it again – even if you cite a Fuhrman study concluding that head-whacking improves mood and prevents sexual dysfunction.
I also have to consider the experiences of my friends and acquaintances. I’ve known plenty of vegetarians over the years, and as far as health status goes, I wouldn’t trade places with any of them. They’re all on prescription drugs. I’m not. I’ve seen them suffer from arthritis, auto-immune diseases, spinal degeneration and cancer, to name just a few. One vegan friend in Los Angeles had to undergo extensive dental surgery because she lost half the bone mass in her jaw.
But of course, those are mere anecdotes and therefore aren’t scientifically valid. Now, you and I both know you’re only interested in the so-called “science” that supports your religion, but since you insist on pretending otherwise, I’ll deal with your science (ahem, ahem) as well.
First, let’s look at some basic principles of science. In real science, we control for confounding variables when testing a hypothesis. We also don’t consider a hypothesis valid unless the results are consistent and repeatable.
The studies you cite when you show up to preach at me are observational studies, which are notoriously awful when it comes to controlling variables. So Fuhrman and McDougall can cite a few studies that linked saturated fat to heart disease and cancer … so what? I’m sure that’s true to an extent, at least in America. But some of the biggest sources of saturated fat in the American diet are grain-based desserts (sugar and refined flour), dairy desserts (sugar), pizza (refined flour) and Mexican dishes (refined flour). Do you see any possible confounding variables there?
If animal fats are the culprit, then the supposed link between heart disease and saturated fat would hold up across time and across the world. But it doesn’t. Humans have been meat-eaters for hundreds of thousands of years, and yet heart disease and cancer are referred to as “diseases of civilization.” As researcher Peter Cleave told the McGovern committee back in the 1970s, blaming modern diseases on ancient foods is ludicrous.
There have been native peoples all over the world who lived primarily and sometimes exclusively on animal flesh and animal fat — the Masai tribes, our own buffalo-hunting tribes, the Inuits, etc. — but heart disease was nearly non-existent among those people. Doctors who visited them were stunned at how healthy they were. The buffalo-hunting tribes didn’t become fat, diabetic, and plagued with heart disease until they stopped hunting and started living on sugar and flour.
A century ago, Americans consumed four times as much butter and lard as we do now, but again, heart disease was quite rare. We didn’t see a surge in heart disease until we began eating a lot more sugar and substituting processed vegetable oils for animal fats. Even today, the French and Swiss consume far more cream, butter, cheese and pork than Americans, but have a much lower rate of heart disease. (They do, however, consume far less sugar, soda, processed vegetable oils, and white flour.)
In other words, the observational evidence that Fuhrman and McDougall cite isn’t consistent. It doesn’t hold up across time or geography. Not even close.
Clearly something other than animal fat causes heart disease — my guess is sugar and refined carbohydrates, because that result does hold up. Go around the world, look at different cultures throughout time, and you’ll see that heart disease, cancer, and other “diseases of civilization” show up shortly after sugar and white flour become dietary staples.
Many of you have preached to me that the Fuhrman-McDougall-Ornish diet is superior because it lowers cholesterol. I’ve got news for you: That’s one of the least convincing arguments you can make, because I don’t want my cholesterol lowered. Check the longevity figures against various cholesterol levels. People with low cholesterol have shorter lifespans. They’re more likely to die of cancer, stroke, infections and suicide.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can sense you reaching for that chapter from the prayer book already: “No, you see, cancer CAUSES low cholesterol!” Uh-huh. If high cholesterol is linked to heart disease, it must mean cholesterol is causing the disease. But if cancer is linked to low cholesterol, by gosh, it must be the other way around — because preacher Fuhrman says so. Since the low cholesterol often shows up years before the cancer, that’s quite a trick. And good luck explaining how strokes and suicide cause low cholesterol.
But about that link between high cholesterol and heart disease: it doesn’t actually exist, except in males below the age of 65 living in a few countries. It certainly doesn’t hold up around the world. Some of you have quoted McDougall as saying he’s never seen a heart attack in anyone with cholesterol below 150. (Notice he didn’t say he’s never seen cancer or a stroke.) Well, if that’s true, it merely means McDougall has never visited Australia. Aborigines have one of the lowest average cholesterol levels in the world. They also have one of the highest heart-disease rates. Autopsies have shown plaque-filled arteries in heart-attack victims whose total cholesterol was as low as 115. If high cholesterol causes heart disease and low cholesterol cures it, how is that possible?
Some months ago, I dug up the WHO data on average cholesterol levels and heart-disease rates around the world. If high cholesterol causes heart disease, then plotting those figures against each other would produce a nice, recognizable trend-line. And as it happens, I did plot them against each other. You can see the result below:
Do you see a trend-line there? I certainly don’t. When I ran the CORR function in Excel, it showed a very slight negative association between cholesterol and heart disease — in other words, higher cholesterol was correlated with a slightly lower rate of heart disease.
I found a similar result when I ran an analysis on the American Heart Association’s own data: people with LDL over 130 actually have a slightly lower rate of heart disease than people with LDL below 130.
So once again, the observations your preachers made that you keep quoting don’t hold up. They’re not consistent, and they’re not repeatable. Therefore, they’re not scientifically valid.
Many of you have offered yourselves as evidence that the Fuhrman-McDougall-Ornish diet works. Some of you have even sent me pictures of your now-skeletal bodies, apparently thinking I’d be impressed. I wasn’t. I have no desire to look like I take my meals in a concentration camp.
If your health improved, I’m happy for you. But you might want to ask yourself which aspect of the diet improved your health. Your preachers insist you give up animal foods, but also sugar and refined carbohydrates. Then when your health improves, they offer it as proof that animal foods were the problem and only the Holy Plant-Based Diet can lead to eternal health and happiness.
But I also gave up sugar and refined carbohydrates, and my health also improved, despite adding more animal fat to my diet. Hey, ya know … perhaps it’s the sugar and refined flour that are the real problem here.
You’ve preached about how Ornish and Furhman have reversed heart disease in their patients. Fine, I believe you. But so have doctors like William Davis and Al Sears, and they don’t tell their patients give up animal foods; they tell their patients to give up sugar and refined carbohydrates. A friend of mine went on the Atkins diet — no sugar, no refined carbohydrates — and his labs improved so much, his doctor took him off his statin and said, “Whatever you’re doing, keep doing it.”
Notice anything consistent about the diets that reverse heart disease?
If merely giving up animal fats and switching to all plant-based foods were the key to avoiding heart disease, that result would hold up around the world. But it doesn’t. Vegetarians in India have one of the highest rates of heart disease in the world — higher than the Indians who aren’t vegetarians. They don’t eat meat, but they do consume sugar and flour.
Since your religious tracts are full of cherry-picked observational evidence, I’m going to close by asking you to make an observation for me … just one, and if your preachers are correct, this should be easy: Find me a culture, now or in the past, where people subsisted on a diet high in animal foods and animal fats but consumed little or no sugar and flour, yet had high rates of heart disease and cancer. If you can do that, I’ll answer the bell and listen to you preach the next time you feel like asking me to join the Church of the Holy Plant-Based Diet.
Until you can do that, go away. You don’t stand a chance of converting me.
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A cow/pig/chicken a day keeps the doctor away!
Good stuff, Tom. Thanks for the effort it takes to have such a great blog.
Thank you for reading, Paul.
I have always been a carnivore – even as a child. And I have never been a vegetarian. BUT – I used to be a carnivore with a bad conscience for a long time. When I was young nobody preached vegetarianism and everyone praised meat – in fact one of the major slogans of the meat-producers was “meat is the stuff of life”. But then in my late teens and early twenties the cholesterol-scare and all the rest of it started to take off and vegetarian eating – formerly reserved for cranks and people with other odd habits got more and more popular. Vegetarian restaurants – which had been few and far between and had always had something of an outlandish aura – started to become more and more popular. So I tried to go that way (also trying to lose weight all the time) with very moderate success. I still loved meat but as everyone told you it was bad for you (especially fatty meat which I loved more than anything else) I ate less and less with a progressively bad conscience. About ten years ago the tide started to turn and low-carb become more well known. But even then I found it hard to believe that fat and meat are actually healthy food even though I always thought of myself as someone who can think for herself. It took years and several books to change that thinking but boy, was I glad to be able to finally enjoy the foods I really liked without thinking “you really shouldn’t” all the time. After two years of low-carbing I got a lipid panel done for the first time in my life. The doctor couldn’t believe it and said he had rarely seen such fantastic values…
I recently saw a picture of a long-term vegetarian friend whom I haven’t seen in person for several years. Ten years ago, at fifty-odd she looked reasonably healthy. Now, at sixty-odd she looks haggard and pinched, poor soul. Thin but bloodless, drained and pale. This way of eating really does not seem suitable for humans.
The “meat will kill you” attitude really permeated the culture. I watch old re-reruns of “Seinfeld,” and there are a LOT of references to meat and fat being bad for you.
>> The “meat will kill you” attitude really permeated the culture. I watch old re-reruns of “Seinfeld,” and there are a LOT of references to meat and fat being bad for you.
Very True!
Loved the episode (‘The Wink”) where Jerry was afraid to admit to his girlfriend that he was trying vegetarianism for fear of being seen as a wimp. “You’re not one of THOSE are you?”
Also remember the non-fat yogurt episode? Fat was defiantly considered the major enemy back then. There was the whole side plot with an accident throwing off Rudy Giuliani’s cholesterol numbers.
Although at least in one of episodes George was eating peanut butter with his hands because he “was off bread” and in another, Kramer had helped get an eyeglasses store clerk off of “sugar” by plying him with tons of fruit (the Fructose laden irony of that is pretty actually)
Yea.. I watch too much Seinfeld…
Anyway, FYI your movie was one of the main reasons I was been able to get my diabetic father-in law to seriously curtail his carb intake (that along with Richard Bernstein’s book). Getting old-school Italians off pasta is no easy feat!
And let’s not forget the “mutton” episode where Jerry said he could feel his arteries slamming shut.
Glad to hear about your father-in-law.
And lions eat just meat.
Hi Tom,
Fabulous blog, and I agree that the science just doesn’t support the vegetarian evangelists. I also don’t see any good scientific support for the relevance of total cholesterol as a useful marker for heart disease.
But I am very curious about your reference for the statements you make: “Aborigines have one of the lowest average cholesterol levels in the world. They also have one of the highest heart-disease rates.”
I have found verification that Aborigines typically had very low cholesterol levels and essentially nonexistent rates of heart disease prior to the contamination of their natural hunter/gatherer diets by Western grains, industrial oils and sugars, etc. In this they were no different than many other hunter/gatherers around the world prior to westernization of their diet.
And I have found lots of documentation that after said dietary modernization, Aborigines now exhibit hideously high rates of all “diseases of civilization”, including heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity, etc. And they are currently described as having high cholesterol, too, just like so many other hunter/gatherers have become after westernization. For example, here: http://www.cardiovascularultrasound.com/content/6/1/36#B10
So where do you find them being described as *simultaneously* low in cholesterol and high in heart disease? I see a couple of lay articles on the web about this, but no scientific reference for it, and it’s really a very interesting contrast, if accurate, as it so clearly defies the standard lipid religion. Thanx!
Like many native peoples, the Aborigines didn’t suffer from heart disease until they adopted a “civilized” diet.
Malcolm Kendrick wrote about Aborigines in his book The Great Cholesterol Con. Rather than try to find the exact passage (unfortuntely, his book isn’t indexed), here’s a little video of him speaking on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8SSCNaaDcE
I had the WHO data in a spreadsheet at one time, but lost it when a hard-drive blew. I really need to find it again for a speech I’m writing.
Another BOOK you might like:
Nick Lane’s “Life Ascending: The Ten Great Inventions of Evolution” is a must read. I can’t put it down. I’ll confess that I couldn’t quite get through his book “Oxygen: The Molecule that Made the World”, but you win some you lose some with me! Evolution and paleo is da bom.
Wow … where does one even start with the sheer volume of errors in your article.
Your whole article, by the way, is an effort in, what Psychologists term, “Cognitive Dissonance”. Let’s say you smoke cigarettes, and you know it is harmful to your health. This creates internal anxiety. Humans can’t live in a constant of anxiety. So, smokers either have to change their behaviour (stop smoking) or change their attitudes (convince themselves that the evidence is wrong, or that they “don’t smoke that much anyway”, for example).
This is precisely what you’ve done. You’ve used your modicum amount of education that you have (calling studies “observational” when they are really “correlational” — you’re welcome), and tried to come up with some excuse for supporting factory farming while you unnecessarily shovel the flesh of animals in your yapper.
And the whole idea that you “need” to eat meat because eating veggie lasgna, for example, isn’t good enough for you, is such a load of horse shit. You know it, and I know it. It just makes for a wonderful excuse for you to contribute to the slaughter of animals en masse.
The fact of the matter is, the Zeitgeist is changing (that means ‘spirit of the times’ for all you uneducated flesh-eaters). Animals are deserving of rights. And just as it is now most unpopular to destroy animals so you can look pretty (fur coats), so will be the case to destroy animals so you can fill your selfish gut with the flesh of a pig or a dog.
Too bad I couldn’t have this dialogue with you in person. I’d have you on the floor in 10 minutes crying after challenging all your crap.
Vegetarians and those that respect ALL forms of life are championing in a new era. People like you will eventually just die and take your selfish and malformed reasoning with you.
I’ll let you get back to your pig and cow burger, bitch.
When we track people over time with no clinical intervention — such as having them keep food journals and then measuring their health 10 years later, it’s called an “observational” study, and correlations are what are found in them. Look it up. But I don’t care if you call them “Goofy Studies” or “Look What We Found Studies,” the problem with confounding variables remains the same.
Cognitive dissonance is what happens when you’re confronted with data showing no relationship between cholesterol levels and heart disease around the world, yet still manage to convince yourself it’s true.
And in which paragraph did I express my support for factory farming, by the way? Part of paleo eating is to choose meats from animals that were raised in pastures and only consumed grass.
But thanks for that reasoned and logical response. I’m glad to see my belief that vegetarians evangelists base their beliefs on emotion was so thoroughly refuted.
The idea, also, that vegetarians are “weak and pale” is just another myth put out by the flesh-eaters, in their continued effort to destroy pigs, dogs, cows, chickens, etc. for human consumption.
I always like the quote by the farmer who says, “You need to eat meat to keep yourself strong. All the while he is being pulled by his oxen who eat nothing but plants.”
The largest and strongest animals in nature, including dinosaurs, have always been … wait for it … HERBIVORES.
The most aggressive and viscious and wirey little beasts are … yep … CARNIVORES.
Judging by your comments, your moniker, and the mere fact that you felt the need to show up here and spew, I’d say the most vicious and aggressive little beasts among humans are vegans.
If you have time to spend nearly all your waking hours grazing, like the herbivores must do, I invite you to do so. I also suggest you eat nothing but grass for, say, three months, then tell me how strong you feel. After all, it if works for an ox, it surely must work for you. (I presume you have a four-chambered stomach.)
“When we track people over time with no clinical intervention — such as having them keep food journals and then measuring their health 10 years later, it’s called an “observational” study …”
It’s actually part of a class of longitudinal studies. And unlike you, I don’t have to look it up, because I have degrees that allow me to recall past information that I rigorously studied. All of the longitudinal studies are correlational as well, by the way.
Your explanation of what Cognitive Dissonance is — is simply wrong. I don’t know how else to explain it to you, other than grabbing you an introductory Psychology book and having you read the passage until it becomes apparent.
And need I remind you, Gorillas are almost entirely herbivores as well. I’d love to see your carnivore ass go against a male gorilla. Sorry, but your suggestion that humans can’t be strong unless they slaughter an animal and roast and eat its flesh is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
And yes, I am VERY aggressive — I make no apologies about it. I am surrounded by humans, such as yourself, that contribute to the *unnecessary* mass SLAUGHTER of innocent animals lives — BILLIONS of them. And how do you treat the flesh of these animals that have been factory farmed and treated in the most disgusting and sick conditions — you stick bologna in your mouth and take a “comical” picture of it.
It’s always people like me (and organisations like GreenPeace, PETA, etc) that are seen as aggressive and “emotional”. But overtime we do make progress! In Hollywood, for example, animals are forced not to be objectified and killed and thrown away, for example — which was common practice in the past. But there were a few us, back then, that said, “HEY, THIS HAS GOT TO STOP.” And people like you said, “OH Christ, here we go again, emotional PETA acting up.”
If you want to throw pejoratives at me and call me “emotional” for giving a shit about animals, you can run with that. But the tide is turning. And humans will one day see a time when killing animals for food will be as normal as cannibalism.
You, sir, just don’t get it. I can’t be polite when I see slavery of humans; nor can I be respectful when I see the slavery of animals, and some guy who finds silly reasons to “justify” it.
Well, hell, you’ve convinced me. Gorillas are herbivores? Sheeooot, I didn’t know that. Since I, like a gorilla, have a huge stomach cavity and a small brain, I clearly should follow his diet. I’m sure if I ingested 30 to 40 pounds of leaves per day, I’d soon grow as big and strong as a gorilla and could kick his ass in return. That’s probably the natural diet for humans — leaves. In fact, since it’s the natural diet for gorillas, it must also be the natural diet for all other species. I suspect lions and tigers and bears would also be much bigger and stronger if they’d switch to an all-leaf diet.
Of course, our nearest relatives are chimps, who do hunt and kill prey, but they’re likely acting out of completely unnatural urges. (I personally believe they simply enjoy the cruelty.) If they’d just get off their chimp asses and read some vegan books, they’d realize what a mistake they’re making.
An observational study means we observe and collect data to analyze but don’t interfere by giving treatments. A longitudinal study is a specific type of observational study; it means we make observations and collect data at various intervals over time.
If I compare current cholesterol levels and rates of heart disease in various countries, that’s an observational study. If I have people fill out a food survey and then check their current medical records in order to make correlations, that’s also an observational study. If I have people fill out a food survey every five years for 20 years and track their medical records over the same period, it’s still an observational study, but also a longitudinal study. Once again, look it up. Doing so won’t tarnish your academic credentials.
Awesome post, Tom, just flipping awesome! Doesn’t seem as if the vegetarian diet has given MeatEatersAreLooooosers a very tolerant, peaceable type of nature, does it? Sure glad that I don’t feel that I need to defend by low-carb way of eating. Since going low-carb 18 months ago, I find life to be sweetened with improved health! I feel pretty mellow!
Funny how listening to your body leads to inner peace, isn’t it?
Wow as an ex-long term veggie/vegan this really embarasses me. while I’m saddened by the need to eat meat and the bad treatment so many animals are subjected to in the industry I feel mortified to have ever been associated with the likes of the above poster. It’s always the same old predictable non-sensical crap from the evangelists, doing it for the benefit of animals is enough reason to be veggie if it works for you, there’s no need to emply crap ‘science’ to bolster your arguments. Why always the need to convert others or give them a hard time? We all do harm to someone or something in living our lives, it’s the way of the world and no one is truly innocent, yes even the veggies are guilty of harm as much as they are inclined to look down their noses at others. I’m a nutritionist and even as a veggie I always advised people to eat meat as I was under no illusions of the benefits or the science, now I eat it myself (I’m following the primal lifestlye) although I do it with a heavy conscience and a much healthier and happier body. No wonder veggies get such a bad rap with idiots like the above formulating the stereotype.
I don’t put all vegetarians in that poster’s category by any means. I’ve been a vegetarian and have vegetarian friends. That’s why I refer specifically to the Vegetarian Evangelists — they’re a subset who fall into the True Believer mindset.
Long time reader, first time poster. Just had to weigh in after reading what the vegan troll had to say. Not sure why he had to add his .02$ & be so condescending about it. We get it: you think you’re smarter than us. That may be so, but it’s been my experience that those who go out of their way to show how smart they are, usually are overstating the case.
To the troll: whether the “Zeitgeist” is changing or not is irrelevant; in the end, the Truth wins out. Yes, people did stop using animal furs, mostly because they’re seen as expensive, extravagant & out of reach for the common person. Something you really can’t attribute to eating meat. The analogy ain’t gonna work unless you force-feed ‘em using corn-syrup drip I.V.s.
I’m not surprised that you’ve tried to bully, intimidate and condescend to the non-vegans in this blog, it’s been the way of ideologues from the beginning of time. Problem is, eventually reason trumps fantasy, and, when you’re up against people armed with facts (as opposed to the uninformed saps you’re used to pushing around using your vastly superior intellect), you’re in for a drubbing.
The vegan troll’s inability to see reality clearly reminds of that great quote by Charles Macaulay: “Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.”
Keep up the great work, Tom.
Well said. Thanks.
Let’s not worry too much about cognitive dissonance. Let’s talk about Dunning-Kruger effect. From Wikipedia:
“The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which an unskilled person makes poor decisions and reaches erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to realize their mistakes. The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority.”
Love it. But considering that the angry little vegan started out by saying my post was “full of errors” and then failed to actually point any out, the attempt at condescension was kind of funny.
“I watch old re-runs of “Seinfeld,” and there are a LOT of references to meat and fat being bad for you”.
Larry David (co-creator of Seinfeld) references the same nonsense in Curb Your Enthusiasm (his HBO series) as well. Still a great show though!
It seems the people that believe in the vegetarian way of life are also the same people who believe everything they see on TV. The suckers of the world.
It’s everywhere. I really enjoyed the movie “Thank You For Smoking,” but there was big scene in which the tobacco guy attacks the cheese-state senator for causing heart disease by supporting cheese.
@MeatEatersAreLooooosers
“Humans can’t live in a constant of anxiety. So, smokers either have to change their behaviour (stop smoking) or change their attitudes (convince themselves that the evidence is wrong, or that they “don’t smoke that much anyway”, for example).”
I call BS. I know many smokers. None believe it is good (or simply not bad) for them and most admit they smoke too much. Their attitudes are invariably either “I want to quit but can’t” or “Meh, gotta die of something”. Your reasoning is faulty.
“tried to come up with some excuse for supporting factory farming”
I call BS. I’ve never seen Tom endorse anything but free range and grass fed animal products…
“the Zeitgeist is changing (that means ’spirit of the times’ for all you uneducated flesh-eaters). “
Haha, Zeitgeist is a term used in Fat Head (By Dr. Mike Eades I believe).
“And just as it is now most unpopular to destroy animals so you can look pretty (fur coats)”
I call BS. Possum fur products are coming out of New Zealand, achieved simultaneously with eradicating the pest that is destroying our native fauna. Also, leather jackets (despite being a byproduct of meat) seem awfully popular.
“The largest and strongest animals in nature, including dinosaurs, have always been … wait for it … HERBIVORES.”
I call BS, food chain anyone?. You obviously don’t know anything about the ocean.
“I don’t have to look it up, because I have degrees”
Wow… Just wow. I call superBS.
“I’d love to see your carnivore ass go against a male gorilla.”
Can we use all of our evolutionary advantage from eating meat, such as making firearms with our opposable thumbs and brain? If so, Tom would waste that ape.
Bingo. I don’t have to be as big as a gorilla (not that eating like one would do the trick anway). I just have to be smarter.
You can probably guess by my nomenclature that I’ve been vegetarian (and vegan) in the past, and at different times in my life I’ve been surrounded by beautiful, intelligent, idealistic vegans and vegetarian friends. People I loved and admired, many of whom remain dear friends, but some of whom can’t deal with friendship with someone who eats meat* …
I was vegan or vegetarian for ethical rather than health reasons. Health reasons didn’t really occur to me. Like many of my generation, I was quite sure the cold war would heat up and kill me long before any disease might.
I tried so very hard to be vegan and/or vegetarian, many attempts, over many years, but I couldn’t deal with it physically and the evidence over time was persuasive that at least in my case I would get very sick, very quickly on a vegan diet and very sick, less quickly but still quite quickly, on a vegetarian diet.
It irritates me that even now I am tempted to counter all the rude and disrespectful questions that the above deeply personal testimony tend to generate from zealots… such as the idea that I must have been ‘doing it wrong’ or that I didn’t give it long enough or that it was the detox from my former evil ways or something… Irritation with behaviour like that did help me develop the resolve I needed to be true to my own lived experience and to listen to my body.
I managed to find a kind of balance where I ate mostly vegan and/or vegetarian but ate exactly the bare minimum of animal I needed to avoid getting sick. This worked out to be red meat once a month (I think some ladies might know what I’m talking about!) and regular fish and/or free range chicken. I still abstained from dairy because of ethical considerations, though I never did, even in my most convinced moments, care much for the rights of oysters versus my pleasure in eating them! So I think all those oysters (gathered wild… just me, my knife and a lemon… ah, happy days!) really did help lessen the physical damage I did to myself during those years, as did all those times I weakened in my willpower and just… now what was that phrase? … oh yes, unnecessarily shoveled the flesh of animals in my yapper. Indeed, I did even fill my gut with the flesh of a pig on occasion during those years… never mind that it was wild and trapped for ecological reasons and killed humanely by a gentle and skilled permaculture farmer… Such nuances are wasted on zealots.
Now I just do the best I can with regard to the welfare of the animals I eat but if I am traveling or visiting friends I am happy to set aside my ideals and enjoy a meal that doesn’t meet my ideals. That’s life, flawed and human.
My perfection is not actually that relevant to the planet, and I am doing what I can do with love for myself and my own body as well as for others.
Khrystyna, I think there may be some similarities between us – good luck with the uneasiness – I know what you are talking about! Corny I know but the Desiderata (on the back of many a toilet door) says it well;
…be gentle with yourself,
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
* And grows less easy to shame about that! (Thank you, Tom & others)
You gotta love the old gorilla argument. Am I sorry that my ancient ancestors decided to eat meat so I’m not walking around on my knuckles as well as my feet not to mention extremely hairy with a large head and small brain?? Heck no! If the vegans have their way, future generations will be, though, since they’ve already succumbed to beating their chests in rage, trying to scare everyone into doing what they feel is “best” for us.
And of course, the real issue isn’t whether gorillas are big and strong as vegetarians; it’s whether I’d be bigger and stronger as a vegetarian. Considering that I’m 51 and lift quite a bit more weight now than when I was a much younger vegetarian, I’ve answered that one for myself already.
Geez, I don’t remember ever being so angry and bitter as a vegetarian/vegan. I think that one is beyond the help of a good dose of saturated animal fat. I’m sure there’s a top notch position waiting for him and his superior intellect at the USDA or FDA, but he needs to learn to play nicely with others.
I’m afraid that’s how True Believers act when their ideas are challenged.
Hey Tom,
Great post, you got my full support and this is a lot less messier idea to get rid of those evangelists, jst refer them to this blog post lol. Hey btw i was reading through this article when i stumbled on that part where you spoke about indian vegetarians having a very high heart disease rates and even higher than indian non-vegetarians, could u please guide me towards any sites that have data or information on this correlation? Also it would help if you could point me towards data about heart disease and cholestrol levels of indians and their relation or non-relation, coz im not so great with heavy researching so im really not able to get a good set of well researched data on Indian heart disease stats. Any information would be great help. Thanks Tom.
Uffe Ravnskov and Malcolm Kendrick both covered the topic in their books. Here’s some online stuff.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/5/462
http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/nutrition/saturated_fat.htm
http://vegetarian.lovetoknow.com/President_Clinton_Vegetarian
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC487855/pdf/brheartj00329-0083.pdf
http://www.heartsmart.info/share.html
Wow, lately your blog been attracting lots of aggressive and brain dead vegan trolls. Me think they should increase their intake of fatty acids and B12 to have a better mood and a better brain function. A tendency to irrational anger is also a symptom of low vitamin B12 levels.
I think I read somewhere that tribes eating the least meat and fats are the most aggressive and warlike ones while tribes eating the most meat and fat are the most peaceful ones. Likewise, in Africa, Dr. Price has also found that meat-eating tribes always dominated tribes whose diets were largely vegetarian. This is because meat eating tribes like the Masai are stronger, healthier and taller than the “mostly vegetarians” tribes. We look to the Inuit and Ache (to name a few) who eat almost exclusively a traditional meat based diet, yeat have NO cardiovascular diseases. Last but not least, the french intake of saturated fat and animal meat are higher compared to the US but they have much less heart diseases. These are just observations but since the vegan trolls love to mention observational studies, I could not help to mention a few too.
Growing crops like wheat and soy that many vegetarians and vegans rely upon are some of the most damaging practicises to the environment. Many small animals are killed during the harvest and naturals ecosystems like the prairies are destroyed to make the land fit for agriculture. Not to mention the amount of pesticides and chemicals used to get rid of the bugs. So adopting a plant based diet will not save more animals or even the world. I guess the vegans trolls cared only for the big animals like cows and chickens but they could care less for the bugs and rodents killed producing their food.
Stopping subsidies given to grow these plants is the real answer. There will also be less incentive for the farmers to feed cows and other animals with these crops.
Adopting an ancestral diet rich in meat and veggies is essentiel to have a healthy life. It is suistanable and there is no need to supplement unlike the deficient vegan diet. There are no real moral, environmental, and health reasons to avoid humanely raised animals and grass fed meat.
My sister-in-law told me that in a book she read about Genghis Kahn, there was a passage describing how his soldiers, as meat and dairy eaters, were much bigger and stronger than the grain-eating armies they faced. I also read recently that Native Americans from the buffalo-hunting tribes were taller than the white settlers.
My wife has a “vegan evangalist” friend who regularly sends her stuff like saving the bears in the rainforest, the latest list of dogs for adoption from the local dog shelter, or cruelty free makeup etc, but today she crossed the line! She sent us the latest newsletter from Quorn (www.quorn.com.au)- meat-free, soy-free pre-packaged food. Alarm bells rang. O-K-A-Y…so what this this stuff made from, then? Mycoprotein. WTF??! I’ve never seen a furry Mycoprotein walking around in a farm or a zoo before so I was puzzled as to what this was. As it happens, it’s actually the protein from a fungus grown in vats using glucose syrup as food…you’ve got to be kidding! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoprotein). And vegans/vegetarians think they’ll be healthy eating this crap. We’ve been blessed here in Australia with the launch of the latest laboratory abomination posing as food. I’m flaming my wife’s friend with this post. Well done Tom!
I’d have to wonder why people who supposedly love nature would eat such an unnatural food.
I used to eat the flesh of innocent animals, but now I’ve seen the light and only eat the flesh of guilty animals. I don’t care why that chicken crossed the road, but he was jaywalking and, in my book, that’s a capital crime (punished with a little hoisin sauce and steamed broccoli).
I joke, but it’s hard not to.
From A. Whitney Brown: “I’m not a vegetarian because I love animals. I’m a vegetarian because I hate plants.”
Barry groves has a great article on why the whole “gorilla’s and ox it a vegetarian diet and they could kick your ass argument” is a load bollocks. Anyone who hasn’t already seen it can check it out here http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/should-all-animals-eat-a-high-fat-low-carb-diet.html
One thing that annoys me is the claim, by the VEvangelists, of anecdotal ‘evidence’ for why they are healthier, more ethical, what have you. Ornish publishes a few anecdotal CAT scans of reversal of atherosclerosis but then SCREAMS against at any anecdotal Atkins diet success. (Taubes said he was initially intrigued by a co-worker who shrank on Atkins). Anecdotes are definitely a starting point. Then to bolster an anecdotal claim, the V’s backfill. There just have to be 1000′s of studies to support the few (multi-factorial, confounding observational ‘studies’). Backfilling in a story is very common and I think we all do it, but with the V’s it’s especially problematic There are too few of them for the data to ever have left the anecdotal stage. Only 2% of Americans are practicing V’s. There are quite simply not enough of them to do any large population studies they claim have been done and to have proved their points. On the contrary- a massive, unintended longitudinal observational study has been conducted on hundreds of millions of Americans over the last 30 years. The eat low-fat, high-carb, vege oils and ever more GRAINS diet has lead to increases in aggression, heart disease, diabetes, autism, dementia etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum. All one has to do is LOOK.
Liked the post a lot! Will refer people to it when asked about science and vegetarianism. For some reason the “vegan troll” really reminded me of “Grizzly man” Timothy Treadwell who was extremely fond of bears until both he and his girlfriend died a horrible death being eaten by a grizzly.
That reminds me of a show I saw on TV in which some park ranger nearly fainted when he saw two nature-loving types walking towards a bear and waving to it. They were lucky the bear wasn’t hungry and decided to leave them alone.
“…that contribute to the *unnecessary* mass SLAUGHTER of innocent animals lives”.
unnecessary killing would be if I put a cow into a canon and shoot it over the English canal for the heck of it. Or if I used puppies as footballs. But since meat keeps me strong and healthy there is absolutely nothing unnecessary about the killing, sir!
I appreciate the post Tom. I will probably copy/paste it everytime I run into an acolyte from the cult of veg. It happens more often than I care for.
Hey Tom, I loved this post, and just finished reading it twice. I have an odd observation, was wondering if anyone else has? I am a 49 year old guy. and until 2 years ago have eaten low-fat, high carb/high fiber, partially vegetarian (many meatless suppers, thinking it was healthier). I also was a compulsive runner. I have been plagued all my life with “backne”, big red pimples all over my back and shoulders. last 2 years, i have eaten whole real foods, healthy fats, little to no sugar, and all the butter, cream, eggs, cheese and meat I desire. Guess what? As I type this, my skin is so clear, i feel i can go shirtless for the first time in my life, the problem has totally cleared up, it’s like a miracle. And my complexion has dramatically improved as well. Could this be due to the animal fats/cholesterol/coconut oil i now freely enjoy? Anyone else have this experience?
-Anon.
I’m sure eating real fats has something to do with it, and probably giving up grains and other garbage as well. Your skin is very fat-dependent and cholesterol-dependent.
Take it easy on MeatEatersAreLooooosers. His cholesterol levels are probably very low which contributes to his aggression. All the soy he eats may also contribute to his hormonal imbalance.
Joel Furhman seems to be a thoughtful guy in so many respects that I’m surprised he’s so anti-meat. I find his writings on therapeutic intermittent fasting to be compelling, especially in the context of improving blood pressure and helping to restore pancreatic beta cell function, most useful for those people who spent too much time believing the low-fat/high-carb dogma.
Highly intelligent people are perfectly capable of becoming dogmatic about their beliefs. Personally, I think the Furhmans of the world simply believe it’s immoral to eat meat, so they cherry-pick the science in order to have their beliefs in alignment. After all, it would be a very strange world if the immoral way of eating were also the healthier option.
Anon., my skin has improved since I started a low-carb, high-fat diet. I didn’t have acne, except for an occasional small breakout, but my heels were calloused and my skin was dry and flaky. No more. When I go to the cosmetics store, I see aisles and aisles of stuff I don’t need.
@Lovely Lentilla
Just curious, what are the ethical reasons for eating meat over dairy? Being a dairy farmer it’s just something I’m interested in. (Keep in mind I farm in New Zealand with open pastures rather than feedlots, if that makes a difference.) I’ve seen many people here talk about not having dairy because of the paleo-diet and what-not.
If it’s factory farming you’re talking about, I agree. If not, I’d like to know how you view it.
That one statement about the largest and strongest animals being herbivores made me laugh. The largest animal alive today and that has ever lived (to my knowledge) is the Blue Whale. A stone cold carnivore. Astounding.
And of course, it was a bit of rather strained logic to say that since gorillas are stronger than I am, I’d be stronger if I didn’t eat meat. But let’s face it, logic has nothing to do with vegan evangelism.
Thank you for the great ammo for my next encounter! So clear and concise and undeniable.
I really enjoy reading the responses from the meateaterloser guy. I can just see him hunched over his laptop in a fart-smelly room (from the beans). All pasty white and emaciated with his stick like arms sticking out of a MEAT IS MURDER t-shirt. Writing and rewriting his fantastic prose. Probably an amalgam of other posts he’s read and copied. Then hitting submit with a tremendous feeling of righteousness and a little squirt of adrenaline typical of the true internet warrior. So much fun. I wish more of his kind had answered.
I’m surprised more of his kind didn’t show up. But since I asked them to please name a culture where people ate meat but not sugar and flour and still had a lot of heart disease, they may be busy conducting research projects.
@ Tony NZ
The reasoning was pretty complicated… I was a complicated girl, as you can see by my oyster exception clause… or maybe that was a flash of simplicity in an otherwise complicated scenario. Hmmmm. There were numerous permutations looking for a way to eat that i didn’t feel guilty about, over at least a decade, at least 8 or 9 different plans, and in the permutation of which we speak, in which I was avoiding dairy but still eating red meat (rabbit mostly), there were a few different factors involved. The ethical factors were as you suggest to do with factory farming, but even on pastured lands I felt the cows suffered so much in their transportation to the slaughterhouse (if they were male and when female and too old for milking) and then there are the conditions in the slaughterhouse as well. I believe in New Zealand there’s an option for on-site kill, which seems better to me. I’m not defending my reasoning by the way, and it changed, many times.
I still haven’t found a way of eating that I’m happy with but it is a lot easier now living as I do in the country (Southwest WA, Australia) with access to free range eggs from farmers I know and pastured meat from farmers I know. I’m eating dairy (and beef) anyway now despite my sadness about the transport conditions for the cows and the conditions in general at slaughterhouses.
So many years of my life spent thinking about this stuff! And in the end, my response basically is “Oh, well.”
I just have to laugh at that vegan poster.. accusing you of cognitive dissonance as a way to lower his.. funny stuff. Great post, just wanted to add my “yea, what he said!”
Believe me, I was chuckling as I read his diatribes.
“…that contribute to the *unnecessary* mass SLAUGHTER of innocent animals lives”.
Of course these vegans close their eyes to the mass slaughter of tiny animals living in the soil when growing their precious plant foods. They are pretty selective (and hypocritical) when it comes to which animals they choose to consider worth protecting from the food chain.
That’s one the many points Lierre Keith made in her book. Feeding humans requires killing other creatures, like it or not.
“Meat is Murder” delicious tasty murder and nutritious too!
Sorry, but most of you on here are, in fact, losers. I always love the posts from people that say, “I really tried to eat vegetarian, but just couldn’t do it. I found that I really did need bacon.” haha Give me a break.
The problem with meat eaters, and the reason why I tend to classify you all as losers, is two-fold: (1) You fail to educate yourself on the reasons why you shouldn’t eat meat. Even the tool that made this little documentary attacks it from a one-dimensional level: Health. Um, how about the environment, or how about animal rights? Most of you yahoos have never been to a factory farm, and probably couldn’t care less what goes on in one — you just want the taste of that burger on your tongue for 5 seconds until you swallow into your gut.
This brings me to my second reason. You are all selfish. I would love it if you guys just said, “Ok, yes, I eat meat, and I know that it’s very harmful to the environment (top 3 next to car pollution), but you know what, I don’t care.” Just frickin’ say it and take ownership of your selfishness. Or, how about, “Ok, yes, I know animals are treated inhumanely and grotesquely, but, you know what, I just want my Burger King burger and I don’t want to think about it.”
But none of you can say that. That’s what’s so ridiculous about you all.
If I drove around in a big diesal truck polluting the environment and running over animals, and some kind soul said, “Hey — your polluting the environment and killing animals. You could drive a smaller and less flashy automobile.” I wouldn’t say, “Who cares. It doesn’t hurt the environment, and most of the animals shouldn’t be in my way anyway.”
That’s exactly what you tools do.
And the fact that I have sparked all the flesh-eaters anger and they are all trying to villify vegetarians makes me know that I am doing something right. I’ve never taken comfort in the fact that my opinions and values are accepted by the ignorant masses.
Animals are getting more and more rights, and the environment is getting more and more attention too — despite the dismissive and ignorant flesh-eaters’ attitudes.
Oh, and to the little nutritionist lady that doesn’t want to be associated with me: GOOD! I’m a vegetarian not for my health (selfish reason) but for the environment and the health and safety of all animals (ecumenical reason).
In the words of Kathy Griffin: Suck it flesh eaters.
Look, I’ve had it up to here with you grain-and-bean eaters and your constant, selfish destruction of the environment. Do you have any idea how much fossil fuel it takes to keep your precious soybeans and corn growing every year? That’s what the farms use for fertilizer: fossil fuels. So thanks to you, we’re drilling for oil all over the damned planet, supporting crazy-ass repressive regimes in the Middle East, and spilling oil into the oceans just so you can eat your tasty little soybean burgers. If we had some farm animals around to poop on the ground, we wouldn’t need all that fossil fuel, but NOOOO, you selfish-ass vegans wouldn’t want to raise a few cows and pigs just to save the planet from destruction, would you?
And don’t even get me started on the soil run-off. Thanks to all that mono-crop farming of soybeans and wheat and corn, we’re losing topsoil like crazy, and then the fossil-fuel soaked runoff ends up in rivers, poisoning the waterways and killing the fish. None of this happened when humans hunted and fished for their food, but NOOOO, you selfish-ass plant-eaters just had to go and decide you’d rather take up farming so you can eat bread and corn flakes, didn’t you? Screw the soil, I want my cornflakes!
Of course if we raised animals in those fields instead of crops, they’d be pooping on the ground and we’d be gaining topsoil instead of losing it, but NOOOO, you selfish-ass plant-eaters wouldn’t want to raise a few cows and pigs just to save the topsoil, would you?
And that’s before we even get to the killing. Every time you plow another acre to raise future soybean-burgers, you kill more little critters than you can possibly count. Every time you divert another river to provide water for your precious plant foods, you kill more fish and other water creatures than you can possibly count — not to mention the creatures that depend on fish for their own food. I don’t see how you can live with yourself, knowing how many creatures had to perish so you can enjoy your tofu scramble in the morning. But, being the self-centered bastards you are, you just say to yourself, “Screw all the animals that died for my food! I want my tofu!”
Here I am, going out of my way to buy produce and meats from local farmers, paying a bit more to support them, and then you run off to the grocery store to buy a meatless burger made from soybeans that came from a fossil-fuel sucking, soil-destroying, critter-killing farm that shipped its soybeans in a gas-guzzling, exhaust-belching truck to those polluting corporate criminals at Archer Daniels Midland, who turned the soybeans into a Harvest Burger and then shipped it to your grocery store in another gas-guzzling, exhaust-belching truck, and all just so you could enjoy a meatless sandwich.
Jesus, you selfish plant-eaters disgust me.
Oh, and to GrassfedGene, yes, whales are carnivores, well done. But if you look to dinosaurs, you’ll find the largest is a herbivore. What a stupid argument you’ve created – comparing animal by animal.
My point is a simple one — the largest and strongest animals, including the gorrilla, are herbivores. The reason is simple – plant food is stationary and plentiful — you don’t need to chase and kill and choke it to eat it.
This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about when it comes to flesh-eaters — just bloody stupid.
You are all so hypocritical too. Did you see the latest clip of that British lady throwing the cat in the garbage can? Everyone is so angry because, well, gee, cats shouldn’t be treated that way. Oh, but pigs can be treated like shit, right? hahah … hypocrites and morons.
Just … take … ownership … of … your … selfishness.
Yeah, really stupid comparing animal by animal. I suppose a total moron would point to the size of a gorilla as proof that its diet is also the proper diet for a completely different species, such as a human being.
This discussion, by the way, could be exactly the same one said by white slave owners so wanting to keep their grip on black slaves; or heterosexual men so wanting to continue to subjugate women.
You all so desperately want to continue to kill animals and eat them, all the while, knowing on some level, how unethical it is and how it harms the environment. When someone like me comes along, I act as a big reminder to you. I bring all that latent, unpleasant knowledge that you’ve tried so hard to repress to the forefront. Which is why you all come out swinging and use emotional arguments against me, “haha .. he must pale and frail.” Um, good one, and no, not even close.
Just so you know, millions of people are vegetarians, including most Hindus and Sikhs, as well as ethical human beings that strive to live a less humane life. I’m sorry for being ethical and offering a reminder to you all that, well, you’re not. Your over-energetic zeal to eat even more flesh now is a desperate attempt to try to prove to yourself that you don’t care (deep, DEEP, down, I know you all do).
Stop comparing blacks to animals, you freakin’ racist. That’s exactly what the slave-owners did. “Oh, it’s okay if we enslave them … they’re animals anyway.” Shame on you.
I, on the other hand, don’t put humans of any color and animals into the same category.
Don’t you think black people should be treated as humans? I don’t think you should use them as slaves.
“Yeah? If you were black I’d strap you like I just did my slave yesterday! heh heh”
Don’t you think women deserve to be treated equally as men: give them the right to vote, the opportunity to wear pants, and the ability to get an education and work?
“My lady knows her place. In front of the sink! heh heh”
Don’t you think gays and lesbians deserve equality and to be treated like everyone else?
“There’s nothing I like better than to see a gay boy strung out on a cross. heh heh”
Don’t you think animals shouldn’t be killed and treated like slaves when there is so much other food available? Shouldn’t we just leave them alone?
“I like my pig wrapped tightly against my cow — with a little ketchup! heh heh”
Your types have always been so … common. At least you can all take comfort that you form the majority. Keep patting yourselves on the backs here.
Philosophy professor Stephen Hicks wrote a wonderful book about how certain loony types resort to calling their opponents racists, despite no evidence of racism, to avoid debating the actual issues. You might want to find a copy.
@MeatEatersAreBlahblahblah
“most of you on here are, in fact, losers”
Losers or looooosers, which is it? I don’t eat many cheerios, so I don’t have an O oversuply, so most likely the first one.
“Even the tool that made this little documentary attacks it from a one-dimensional level: Health.”
He explained that he would do that, and why. So…?
“Most of you yahoos have never been to a factory farm, and probably couldn’t care less what goes on in one.”
I don’t eat stuff from factory farms… I am a farmer. I have pasture fed cows, grow my own beef (and milk), lamb and, in the past, chickens/eggs (Now I just buy freerange, chickens are a lot of work). All homekilled (I’ll get to that, Lentilla). I am comfortable in the treatment the meat and animal products that I eat. Please keep factory farming and meat-eating as separate issues, they are not the same thing and it is very narrow minded to equate the two.
“You are all selfish. I would love it if you guys just said, “Ok, yes, I eat meat, and I know that it’s very harmful to the environment (top 3 next to car pollution.)”
Two points. Prove to me that meat farming is worse for the environment than wheat/corn farming. I visit seminars on reducing environmental impact of farming. I invest a lot of money in infrastructure to reduce environmental impact. The dairy industry has reduced to a fraction of the figure when it was first measured the amount of greenhouse gas (that’s a whole different issue, got to Tom’s other blog for more on that) per litre of milk produced. If cars had made that sort of progress a Corvette would get 100 miles to the gallon. I care for the environment, because I rely on it for my business. Come work with me for a day and say the same thing. Same with animal treatment.
“they are all trying to villify vegetarians”
No, just the nutters like you. I have vegetarian friends. I respect that. They respect that I eat meat. Deal with the fact that diet is a very small part of existence and if people can’t get along because of it something has gone very awry.
“I’m a vegetarian not for my health (selfish reason) but for the environment and the health and safety of all animals (ecumenical reason).”
Oh I see, you’re one of those people that do something ‘altruistic’ but by God you have to let everyone know about it to inflate your ego. That’s just as selfish (more so, I have a kid on the way, I need to be healthy for them).
“What a stupid argument you’ve created – comparing animal by animal.
Are you serious? I couldn’t possibly parody this because you already have in the following sentence!
“Did you see the latest clip of that British lady throwing the cat in the garbage can?”
Show me where someone threw a cattle beast in a garbage can (dumpster more likely) alive and people found out and people said…meh. You are comparing apples and oranges. I have no problem if someone wants to eat a cat and goes about it humanely (i.e. not someone elses pet, not mistreated etc.). You do not prove anything by this.
“Which is why you all come out swinging and use emotional arguments against me.”
Are you a nutritional researcher? You sure to cherry pick data like them. I’ve seen plenty of non-emotional rebuttals to your points and you have obviously excluded them from your selection criteria.
And Lentilla, the homekill (on-site as you call it) is pretty much a personal use thing. People with farms and lifestyle blocks get their meat this way, as well as people that can buy a cow off the farmers and pay for it to be processed (as a number of people, but by far a minority) do. The slaughterer will come to the animal, shoot, gut and skin it on site and take the carcass back to their workshop to make it into the desired cuts. The owner then picks up the meat and puts it in their freezer. Legally, homekilled stuff cannot be on-sold. There is no market available for someone to go to the supermarket or butcher’s and choose homekilled over slaughterhouse meat.
It is a much better alternative to the trucking and penning of traditional slaughter. Unfortunately, with no market for it, there is no provision to get it to the average consumer.
I would cease responding to this bloke. He is obviously just baiting you now Tom.
Still, very entertaining to read!
I can’t help myself; it’s too much fun. The further this goes, the loonier he becomes. He’s already stooped to accusing me of being against blacks, women and gays, and I want to see how much lower he can go.
@ Tony NZ
You sound very much like some local farmers I know in this beautiful region. It is a privilege to be able to support intelligent and caring farmers. I would like to see the homekill become commercially viable, and I think we might see more of that in the future if the success of free-range chicken and eggs is an indicator.
Real improvements to animal welfare and ecology (and also meat-handling workers working conditions!) can’t happen without the active participation of livestock farmers and animal product consumers. Vegetarian zealotry is at best, irrelevant and at worst, a major obstacle to positive changes.
and I want to see how much lower he can go.
Be careful as Dilbert would say: Don’t argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you by experience.
Now that’s funny!
still back to the dinosaurs? Did he not watch Jurassic Park or never seen a book. I do recall the strongest dinosaur to be T-Rex. I didn’t realize those teeth were for grass.
I bet there are some starving animals out there like bears or tigers. You could be kind to them and offer your body as a meal to them.
I don’t know; if he’s a vegan, he probably wouldn’t make for much of a meal.
@TonyNZ
“(more so, I have a kid on the way, I need to be healthy for them)”
Congratulations! By the way, my brother will be in Morningside next month on business.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128849908
“As we got more, our guts shrank because we didn’t need a giant vegetable processor any more. Our bodies could spend more energy on other things like building a bigger brain. Sorry, vegetarians, but eating meat apparently made our ancestors smarter — smart enough to make better tools, which in turn led to other changes, says Aiello.”
“My point is a simple one — the largest and strongest animals, including the gorrilla, are herbivores. The reason is simple – plant food is stationary and plentiful — you don’t need to chase and kill and choke it to eat it.”
–dumbass Vegan
Seriously? Go ahead and eat a handful of grass. After you vomit, go and google the word ‘Cellulose’. You might discover that your miraculous Gorilla is equipped with the physiology to digest the stuff.
And, not so shockingly, the animals that humans have domesticated are also equipped with the ability to turn cellulose into fat and protein.
Humans are NOT equipped with the ability to digest cellulose.
The next time you go to the doctor to drain your tender, voluptuous man-breasts due to excess soy consumption, swing by Barnes and Noble and pick up The Idiots Guide to Biology. You might surprise everyone and cease being a complete moron.
Saying that meat is unhealthy is blatantly false but the “Meat is Murder” argument actually has reasoning behind it. I would never hold it against someone for not eating meat because they feel uncomfortable having an innocent animal killed for them to enjoy a meal.
I don’t hold it against vegans that they choose not to eat meat. But if they turn into evangelists and show up here spouting nonsense about meat ruining our health and the enviroment, I do hold that against them. I can tolerate people who are arrogant, and I can tolerate people who are ignorant. But I cannot and will not tolerate ignorant people who are also arrogant, especially if they get in my face.
Crop farming is one of the worst environmental disasters ever visited upon the planet. Raise animals in a field, you keep the environment healthy. Raise wheat or corn or soybeans instead, and you create soil runoff and pollute the ground with fossil fuel fertilizers. (Or you could buy a ton of cow manure from a cattle rancher, but since vegans don’t believe in raising animals for food, that would be hypocritical.)
As far as “Meat Is Murder,” Lierre Keith explained quite clearly in The Vegetarian Myth that raising crops kills one helluva lot of creatures. The fact that vegans don’t intentionally kill to eat doesn’t negate the death toll. Animals die for their food. Either it’s okay for animals to die so humans can eat, or it isn’t. In my mind, at least the meat-eaters aren’t fooling themselves into thinking there’s no death involved.